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1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions!
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Sebastian Gaeta
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

That is great news regarding all of the parts you mentioned, especially the folding top.

The cabriolets all came with a locking hood pull, it is the same unit as in the VW convertibles but has a bracket mounted to it so that it fits under the 356 dash. If he has the original key it will be a lotus style key with an SG key code. If it is locked, it will pull out just a bit but not unlatch so hopefully thatís what it is. If itís not locked and itís pulling out but the hood doesnít pop open, here is a trick: reach in with your right hand and pull on the hood release and with your left palm reach around the windshield frame and start tapping the upper left corner of the hood. This trick works 99% of the time for stuck hoods, L O L. If not the T6 Bs had an emergency hood release cable in the left front wheel well.

As for the bodywork, the good news is that I donít see a lot of rust bubbling through the paint, and even though the paint is decades old you still never know what is under there. Bodywork will far and away be the most expensive part of this endeavor, so just bite the bullet and do as much of the other work as you possibly can.

As for value, it all depends on completeness and condition. Once done (right) it is worth six figures plus. My C cab is very nice and is insured for $150k.

Itís *likely* to be worth as much as 50k as it sits but there is a lot of work ahead. Get an idea of what he wants. If he says $25,000 you need to be honest with him and tell him itís worth more and work out a price. If he says $75,000 then you can negotiate down from there. Others will have a different opinion, thatís just mine.
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AB westy nut
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

That's great, I'll try the tricks with hood. Hopefully, there are more goodies than bad surprises under there.

He has an idea of what these go for when fully restored, but also understands the time, effort, and $$$ required to get there. I'm sure we can come to an agreement.
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Sebastian Gaeta
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

Also, regarding the steering wheel, it is unlikely there was a transition period where they used older model parts on new models for a couple of reasons. It may have applied in the very early days but by the 60s Porsche was a real company and any older model parts were put into ďService PartsĒ stock for mechanical and bodywork repairs. On top of that the T6 B debuted in Ď62 so your car was at least a year into production.

As for the Nardi wheel, if it is a Period Nardi from the 60s and is n nice condition, it could bankroll a good amount of the restoration. These have changed hands for upwards of $5,000. If it is the generic fat rimmed wheel from the 70s - 90s with the generic ďNardiĒ horn button then itís worth about $300 and itís probably better to use the stock wheel.
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AB westy nut
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

Interesting about the Nardi wheel. I don't know much about them but don't think it's from the 60's. It did have the Porsche logo horn button and one of the spokes was engraved with "Nardi".
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:04 am    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

AB westy nut wrote:
Interesting about the Nardi wheel. I don't know much about them but don't think it's from the 60's. It did have the Porsche logo horn button and one of the spokes was engraved with "Nardi".


Here is a larger diameter period Nardi wheel:

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And here is a later, smaller diameter wheel with a fatter rim. This was sold for decades from the 70s on as a generic wheel that fit many different sports cars:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

Interesting. I'm pretty sure it's the later one, but I'll have to take a closer look.

What are the differences between the T5 and T6 steering wheels?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 7:06 pm    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

AB westy nut wrote:
Interesting. I'm pretty sure it's the later one, but I'll have to take a closer look.

What are the differences between the T5 and T6 steering wheels?


The T5 steering wheel has flat, sharp edged spokes while the T6 wheel has rounder spokes with a softer edge, otherwise the wheels are identical save for the number of finger grooves on the back of the rim.. Why the change was made has never been determined.

Here is a closeup of T6 wheel spokes, compare it to the spokes in your picture.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

Ok, I was able to spend some more time going through the whole car and the boxes of parts. Unfortunately, it's not as complete as I was hoping and there seem to be a lot of little bits and pieces missing. I guess over the years, he's misplaced some things. The interior also looks like it had been in a flood. He said he recalls having the interior stored in his basement and the basement may have flooded. The good news is, we were able to pop both hoods, although there was nothing really to see. All looks pretty solid except for some surface rust where the battery sits. I was also able to verify that the engine and gearbox are original and match the numbers on the original dealer invoice. Here are some more pics:


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Should this condition and this kind of repair work scare me?

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convertible top. Condition is pretty ratty but it appears to be complete.

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Gearbox number matches.

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Engine number matches.

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Serial numbers.

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Hard top numbers.

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P.O. electrical hack of some kind.

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Any idea what kind of exhaust this is?

Some random pics of all the parts that were in boxes. Some may not even be Porsche...

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Interior...

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Trunk...
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Parts that I know are still missing (I'm sure there's much more):

Radio
Heater controls
Dash knobs
One air cleaner
Bits from the carbs
Some engine tin
Cover for steering coupler
Carpets/floor mats
Bumper brackets and overriders
Gas cap
Gas tank cover
Door handles
Door Hinge covers (with the serial number and paint code tags)
Spare tire
Tool kit
Cover for roof when it's open
Windshield wiper arm
Side mirrors
Glove box latch
Misc bits, knobs, nuts/bolts, levers, wires, etc.
Some exterior trim, lights, etc.

If anyone can add to this list based on the pics, please do!

Given all of this, I'm looking for advice on what to offer, whether this would make a good restoration candidate, and how available parts are. Also, do things like the missing serial number tag on the hinge cover, and other important missing pieces detract from the current and ultimate value of the car? Anything else I should be really wary of?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

If you can gather all the missing parts, rebuild the parts you have, figure out how to put it all back together, repair the crappy body repair work install a new convertible top and things that will surface will cost a minimum of $50,000. with you doing most of the work, as the car sits it's probably worth $50,000. or more in parts so if you can get it for $20,000. you will get your money back if it becomes too much for you, so completed the market now is $100,000. so how skilled are you and how much time do you have to work on it?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

OK, things are looking good and I would not worry too much about what is still missing, they are not nearly what would be a reasonable deal breaker.

I will give some opinions on each picture if I may:

Left front wheel well looks great. That's not necessarily surface rust because Porsche sheet metal was primered in a light red.

Folding top looks very restorable, it even has the "chicken wings" at the ends of the lower bow, they are HTF and expensive.

Inside structure of passenger side looks good.

Headliner on the hardtop looks great, there are a couple of turnbuckles that hold the top down from the inside at the rear, they are available but the little chrome covers you have are not and they are nearly impossible to find.

Passenger footwell looks fine save for the overspray, there is a fuel tap rod that is is missing in the picture but easy to get. The shift knob is original, the repros do not have the mfrs dimple at the top. Hopefully he has the key for the shift lock. It's good you have the headlight switch, overspray should be removable.

I saw the actual glovebox in another image, make sure the securing strap is behind the dash.

rear seat area is fine, I would love to know what he used the wall outlet plug for, if only these cars could talk!

Drivers footwall looks fine, I would love to know what those things are dangling from the wires, they are not factory. The long tab for the wooden floorboard looks great, those are usually all bent up.

Trans number image: lots of 90 weight, could be coming from a lot of places, all fixable. Engine number image: congrats on matching numbers!

Data tag matches engraved number, always a good sign.

All hardtops came with Reutter data tags but no one has ever been able to figure out the sequence. Color tag below is for black paint on the hardtop. Mine is Ivory and they were almost always a contrasting color to the body.


Engine compartment looks fine.

There's that wall plug!

Big black regulator is correct, the wire wrapped around the harness below is for Carrera 4 cam additional distributor, lots of people use it if they decide to install an electric tach.

Great that the heat flapper boxes are there. The side covers in this picture are for use with the soft top in place, the side covers with the rest of the interior are for use when the hardtop is in place and are HTF.

Always great to have new stuff come with an old car needing restoration.

Yup, that's the later Nardi wheel. Use the factory wheel, sell the Nardi and use the funds towards the restoration IMO.

Under the dust the fan shroud looks to be good.

Oil filter canister with original hardware, you might not even have to replace the oil lines, just clean them up.

The ashtray housing is early 911, the little chrome pieces next to it are for the hardtop. Grab handle, glove box and fuse container are original as is the radio block off plate.

There are the hardtop turnbuckles, the reservoir and fog light surround are early 911 as is the all black window winder.

Lots of good stuff, a couple of pieces are early 911.

Clymer manual is good to carry in the car, but get a factory shop manual.

More good original stuff, the correct hood handle crest looks great.

Excellent original side deco trim, note the closed ends. The Reproductions have open ends and look terrible.

Zenith carbs and intakes are rebuildable, you will have not much difficulty finding a second air cleaner.

Some HTF engine tin.

Jack is correct for 356, the rubber top is available.

Seats are all there, you would recover them anyway, note the previously mentioned rear side panels for use with the hardtop.

Door panels are toast, note the grommets at the bottom - reproduction panels don't have them. It's good you have the door pulls they are not cheap.

Typical under hood look, steering box covers are easy to find.

Just surface rust, probably not anything to worry about.

Replace the coupler asap!

Fuse box looks great.

Fresh air inlet still has original sticker on the side.

That's the correct T6 B latch.

I hope you can find the upper latch, they are expensive.

Extra relays perhaps for the BN4 heater?

There is a rubber collar in a previous image that goes around the fuel filler neck here.

Bumpers look good.

There is nothing here that would scare me at all and there are enough parts here that finding what is missing will not be daunting. Can you post a good picture of the underside? If that is good I say do it!!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:12 pm    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

Starbucket wrote:
If you can gather all the missing parts, rebuild the parts you have, figure out how to put it all back together, repair the crappy body repair work install a new convertible top and things that will surface will cost a minimum of $50,000. with you doing most of the work, as the car sits it's probably worth $50,000. or more in parts so if you can get it for $20,000. you will get your money back if it becomes too much for you, so completed the market now is $100,000. so how skilled are you and how much time do you have to work on it?


Thanks Starbucket. I'm skilled on the mechanical side, not on the bodywork side. Hunting for parts and piecing the thing back together properly and accurately is the sort of adventure I like. This wouldn't be a quick project, but I've got time to do it right.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

Thanks Sebastian for the thorough response! A few things:

In the left front wheel well it looks like a bracket has been riveted on, and there are a number of patches that look riveted on in other places. I'm guessing that didn't come from the factory?

I did find the original ignition key. Does that operate the shift lock?

I think the wall outlet had something to do with an interior heater. Wires hanging from the dash were probably for the same thing.

The upper hood latch is there. We removed it so the hood doesn't latch and lock again.

How about the missing hinge covers, especially the driver's side one with the data tags? How much does that detract from the value/originality? Can they be found/reproduced?

I have a couple of pics here of the underside. Looks like section of the floor pan was cut out and riveted in. I would plan on redoing this kind of stuff properly.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:32 am    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

Letís get the current value out of the way. I donít know the market anymore, but itís high that much we do know. Also, the demand is stupid high. So along this line of thought if his price is something you can live with then do it.

Hereís another way to look at this. If you can take on the work then that saves so much. If you have to pay for everything to be done then it probably isnít right for you.

Personally I see a very solid car to start with. Iíd be all over this thing. The surface rust isnít a problem. Iím not seeing major corrosion issues in any pictures.

Itís worth a lot just as it sits. Ask him to give you a price.

Iíd be very excited. You will kick yourself if you pass this up. The wolves will pounce on this once itís on any market and you wonít be able to compete at that point. 50,000 as it sits would be a steal. IMHO. Less would be amazing.

I may not be a good reference because I do all my own work. Paint/body and mechanical. You can learn all these things so donít shy away.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:58 am    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

AB westy nut wrote:
Thanks Sebastian for the thorough response! A few things:

In the left front wheel well it looks like a bracket has been riveted on, and there are a number of patches that look riveted on in other places. I'm guessing that didn't come from the factory? Correct, they did not come that way but that is nothing that cannot be easily overcome. The biggest worry would be perforated rust which after all these years you don't have.

I did find the original ignition key. Does that operate the shift lock? It does not. The shift lock key has a large keyhead that is a rounded triangular or diamond shape.

I think the wall outlet had something to do with an interior heater. Wires hanging from the dash were probably for the same thing.

The upper hood latch is there. We removed it so the hood doesn't latch and lock again.

How about the missing hinge covers, especially the driver's side one with the data tags? How much does that detract from the value/originality? Can they be found/reproduced? The hinge covers are available as well as the data tags, don't worry about those at all because they are not an official tag for registration or titling.

I have a couple of pics here of the underside. Looks like section of the floor pan was cut out and riveted in. I would plan on redoing this kind of stuff properly. Again, since there is no perforation after all these years, the surprises under all of that are likely minimal, of course you never know but this is a good sign.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

@AB westy nut

Here are some photos of my car for motivation, this is what you will have when done. I just took it apart this weekend to do a deep clean, detail and paint correction. I finished the restoration 16 years and 60,000 miles ago so it's time. I will have it back together by May 1st for the driving season, you are more than welcome to come to my shop in Ann Arbor and take it for a drive.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing! What a beauty and definitely an inspiration to work towards. I noticed yours doesn't have the side mirrors either. Were they optional? That, and the little red reflectors above the tail lights. I've seen some T6's with them and some without. What's the rationale there?

I'm going to start the negotiations to see if I can pick it up. Stay tuned...
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

I believe US cars had the little red reflectors above the taillights. Others like Germany delivered cars had them below the bumpers. Iíve seen both and the restored one shown has them above.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:03 pm    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

AB westy nut wrote:
Thanks for sharing! What a beauty and definitely an inspiration to work towards. I noticed yours doesn't have the side mirrors either. Were they optional? That, and the little red reflectors above the tail lights. I've seen some T6's with them and some without. What's the rationale there?

I'm going to start the negotiations to see if I can pick it up. Stay tuned...


My car does have a driver's side mirror, if you zoom in on the image from last summer you can see it, but it does not have a passenger side mirror. Those were not required until later.

As already stated, US delivery cars had the reflectors above the bumper and ROW (Rest Of the World) cars had them below the bumper.

Good luck to you! Pay the man a fair price so you can sleep at night, do as much of the work yourself as you can and you will be in great shape with a great car. I am happy to help anytime in any way I can so just let me know.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

Ahh yes, I do see it now. Funny, the one I'm looking at doesn't have the holes in the driver's door for one. I think the owner has some vintage photos so I'll have to see if it was on there.

The car was originally purchased in Germany but maybe through the tourist delivery program. Hence the North American bits.

Thanks again for your help. I'm sure I'll have many more questions if I do end up acquiring it!
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1963 Ruby Red 356 Cabriolet
1976 Sage Green Westfalia Deluxe
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PD41
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Joined: May 30, 2016
Posts: 109
Location: Redondo Beach
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: 1963 Cabrio Garage Find - Introduction and questions! Reply with quote

Nice find, congrats. Things to consider. Time and money #1
Good you have skills but if you can get it there is many hours of labor
that you would need to commit and go all in. Then the money to move forward.

I would not try to turn the motor any, cylinders could have minor surface rust you could clean or could be junk.
If you can get a cheap scope for your cell look inside the spark plug holes, gas tank. Might be a runner, I'd pull the heads, inspect.

If your undecided about not going all in there is another option.
Clean everything then put the car all back together. And you could maybe do
the mechanical stuff. Lube ups all moving parts, latches, hindges ect.
Brakes, maybe even put the motor back together and make it drivable.
Pick up the missing parts used is not too hard.

Doing this would be a good learning experiance they even sell a vinyl boot cover
for the top for the ratty top. Then drive it. Tearing all back apart for bodywork
later is easy then go all the way and restore it. Or keep it as is or sell it for a profit.

Many cars that guys get them let them sit in boxes for decades,
just like how it is now. Don't be that guy. Good luck...
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