Off-Road suspension basic questions

[aintskeered]

I had my mind set on doing 5x5s in the rear, but I've been thinking about it and I'm wondering... If I was gonna do 5x5, then why not say screw it and go 6x6. I haven't seen too many brands that make 6x6s, was gonna see if anyone had recommendations. What's the overall cost difference and what are the extra challenges and expenses that come with the extra 1 x 1, if any?

That also makes me wonder, I had planned on doing a 6" over beam, and 4 1/2" over arms. I can't seem to find longer front arms than 4 1/2 inches. In my mind at least, I can't imagine the mathematics of that working out to be enough. Are there front trailing arms around that would match the rear 6x6? Or would I need to go A Arms up front for that size in the rear? Thanks

[DHale_510]

[quote]I had my mind set on doing 5x5s in the rear, but I've been thinking about it and I'm wondering... If I was gonna do 5x5, then why not say screw it and go 6x6. I haven't seen too many brands that make 6x6s, was gonna see if anyone had recommendations. What's the overall cost difference and what are the extra challenges and expenses that come with the extra 1 x 1, if any?

I think you need to figure out CV joints that will work at the increased angle, and a bunch of other variable suspension changes toe, camber etc.. You also need to do your own arithmetic to find the real travel you will have. More travel may not really be the most important thing. Most very long travels get very squirrelly at the extremes. Totally one off construction and so no known expenses to quote.

[quote] That also makes me wonder, I had planned on doing a 6" over beam, and 4 1/2" over arms. I can't seem to find longer front arms than 4 1/2 inches. In my mind at least, I can't imagine the mathematics of that working out to be enough. Are there front trailing arms around that would match the rear 6x6? Or would I need to go A Arms up front for that size in the rear? Thanks

Again, do some arithmetic and figure out just what will work for you. Longer coil over springs may work. Moving the lower spring mount in may or may not give you the travel you want. Changing caster may be a very big stability problem. Is this a home build? Lots of hidden engineering will be needed.

Dennis

[JWHracing]

Track width wise, a 6" wider beam typically pairs well with stock or 1.75 or 2.5 over arms with 3x3 arms in the rear. I have a 6" wider beam with 1.75 arms and 3x3s in the rear and the front and rear widths are almost identical.

The reason you don't see many brands offering arms like 6x6 etc, is because that size isn't going to be a bolt on and set up with minimal fabrication. That size of arm should be paired with a custom chassis and true dual pivot style frame. You're exceeding the limit and width of a stock torsion housing's pivot points at that size. Arms that start getting that big are usually measured by the length from the inner pivot to the centerline of the hub, IE 24", 28", 30" etc. A 3x3 arm is about 24-25".

4" front arms are the norm because anything larger than that starts having diminishing returns for the gain in travel. You start running into strength issues, steering clearance problems, and bump steer. The snouts of the arms already like to break which is why you'll find arms stepping up to a 1-3/4" pivot vs stock 37mm/1.5" pivot. Some arms are made also with 1/2" thick tubing to increase strength. 14-16" of travel is very possible with 4" arms. My car cycles 12.5" with no bump steer issues with only 1.75" arms.

We kind of need to know what your plans/goals/budget are. Drivetrain plans, type of driving you want to do, race or play, etc.
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65 Baja - Class 5 Unlimited Race Car

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Currently "retired" from racing

[CrazyTestPilot]

whether you choose 3x3 or 6x6 you'll be long travel in the rear. You'll want the front to be as good as the back and vw trailing arms just simply won't give good long travel performance compared to A-arms. Some people may claim otherwise but go out and ride in some a-arms cars and decide for yourself. Not even close in my book. The moral of the story is ,it would be a waste to spend the 6 or 8 grand to build a nice rear suspension if the whole car gets bottlenecked by a 70+ year old design mid-travel front end. Might as well put hyundai tires on your ferrari. That's of course just an opinion.

[ORANGECRUSHer]

[PhillipM]

A half assed A-arm kit is worse than that trailing arm setup tbfh. There's a reason it's hung around so long.

Unless you're willing to chop into half the front end to make some seriously long a-arms half the time the geometery ends up worse, not better.

[ORANGECRUSHer]

[ORANGECRUSHer]

To say no one can beat the original VW suspension is kinda defeatist attitude if you ask me. Maybe it's not worth the investment for some people? Maybe it's overkill?

But anything's worth doing at least once!

Do. Not try.
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Brian H.
I may not know everything,but I will try to help if I can
OrangeCrushER Berrien Warrior 2.4L Quad4
LAZY MARY 1970 Baja 1835cc

[PhillipM]

[ORANGECRUSHer]

Well you probably understand a lot more than I do about it. I'm not gonna act like I do. And I would agree, a-arms look a lot more impressive to most people which is probably where I come in. I can admit when I might be wrong.

We seem to have gotten away from the OP question but conversation on the Samba seems so sparse these so screw it, I'll ask anyway:

What do you think about the type of arm which has a trailing link on the front? Is this an easier format to get right? Is that why you say you would need to start back so far? Sorry I'm probably not describing it properly.

edit: I think I'm talking about multi-link?
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Brian H.
I may not know everything,but I will try to help if I can
OrangeCrushER Berrien Warrior 2.4L Quad4
LAZY MARY 1970 Baja 1835cc