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Convoy
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2011
Posts: 312
Location: San Clemente
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 Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:00 pm Post subject: Steel braided brake lines |
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| Looking to replace the front rubber flex lines and steel hard brake lines on a 1974 Westfalia. Instead of replacing all four with like kind, does any supplier make a steel-braided flex brake line for each side that would eliminate the two piece line with a single brake line? |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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you are better off with the factory engineered solution. If you have good steel lines and new rubber it will last you another 20 years. If you go steel flex you will still have a rubber line but with a steel cover. Instead of 12" of line that can go bad per wheel you will have feet that can go bad. Steel braided line may burst at a higher pressure but it still rots inside and that is how the lines go bad.
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markd89
Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2005
Posts: 657
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I put in the braided lines to replace the rubber and did notice an improvement. Steve may be right that new rubber would also have had a similar effect. |
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Convoy
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2011
Posts: 312
Location: San Clemente
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you for your input. My speciality is in desert racing with building trucks with 16-18" of wheel travel. I've used steel braided brake lines over 18" in length with great success, so just thought I would use them on the VW. Here's my last build, but sold it to fund this project
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| markd89 wrote: |
| I put in the braided lines to replace the rubber and did notice an improvement. Steve may be right that new rubber would also have had a similar effect. |
same length high quality braided lines as original with the proper fittings IMHO would be equal or better than the original lines. I just don't see the benefit of changing many feet of non-expandable solid steel lines to braided rubber.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Convoy
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2011
Posts: 312
Location: San Clemente
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Good advise. One thing I've learned over the years "keep it simple stupid"... so I'll run the oem set up. Thanks |
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Randy in Maine
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Usually the lines inside the stainless are a teflon line, not rubber. I have a set, just have not installed them yet. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| markd89 wrote: |
| I put in the braided lines to replace the rubber and did notice an improvement. Steve may be right that new rubber would also have had a similar effect. |
I would like to see a comparison of new rubber to new SS. When I replace old 15-30 year old rubber with new rubber, there is often a very noticeable difference. |
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60vwnewengland
Twin #2
Joined: June 25, 2003
Posts: 1784
Location: District of Columbia & Cape Cod
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
| Usually the lines inside the stainless are a teflon line, not rubber. I have a set, just have not installed them yet. |
Randy, I put them on my bus as you suggested.
I highly recommend this product!
Aircooled.net doesn't have them listed on their website, so I'd call them to see if they have them in stock
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77 Westy - Cape Cod Sage
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markd89
Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2005
Posts: 657
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| markd89 wrote: |
| I put in the braided lines to replace the rubber and did notice an improvement. Steve may be right that new rubber would also have had a similar effect. |
same length high quality braided lines as original with the proper fittings IMHO would be equal or better than the original lines. I just don't see the benefit of changing many feet of non-expandable solid steel lines to braided rubber. |
I didn't read closely enough the first time. I agree. Solid steel and steel braided to replace the rubber would be the best way to go. Steel braided is still rubber inside, whereas the metal ones are just metal  |
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minispdrcr
Samba Member
Joined: September 13, 2010
Posts: 272
Location: Oklahoma City, OK
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 6:22 am Post subject: |
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I have some on mine from Goodridge. THe great thing is is if they do not have it they will make you a kit for a GREAT price.
They come with a clear silicone sleeve over the braided part as well and are DOT, TUV and other certified
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...p;start=40
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Marcin P.
1969 Westfalia Weekender Edition
1973 Morris Mini 1300 Super
1998 Audi A6 |
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nathansnathan
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Joined: April 14, 2008
Posts: 1671
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 7:22 am Post subject: |
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I read a description over on 914 site, I think it was the late Howard (?), why, for every reason, rubber lines are better than stainless. I can't get to it to find as the site is down, sadly.
IIrc, the post was saying the stainless lines have rubber inside which will eventually fail and you can't inspect them to see it coming. The rubber ones will show signs, like coming apart, bulging, cracking with age. Also, the rubber ones will lock the brakes up on you when they go, as the inside collapses first, where the steel ones may burst? (I will have to look for the page to confirm that's what he said, can't seem to find it in google's cache even.) Further, the stiffer feel of the non-expanding steel lines offers less feedback than a system with more attenuation.
Again, I have to check later this week when the site is back up to see if I remember the details properly, there may have been more.
It has me convinced to buy 2 new rubber lines for my project rather than using the new stainless pair that came with my parts car. |
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chabanais
Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2002
Posts: 4866
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| Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:35 am Post subject: |
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I was alarmed, going down a steep grade last weekend to see, upon stopping to let the brakes cool, that they were smoking.
Yes... I was using engine braking.
So I'd think keeping the front rotors cool would be more crucial than using braided lines.
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merlinj79
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2008
Posts: 379
Location: SOCAL
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| nathansnathan wrote: |
I read a description over on 914 site, I think it was the late Howard (?), why, for every reason, rubber lines are better than stainless. I can't get to it to find as the site is down, sadly.
IIrc, the post was saying the stainless lines have rubber inside which will eventually fail and you can't inspect them to see it coming. The rubber ones will show signs, like coming apart, bulging, cracking with age. Also, the rubber ones will lock the brakes up on you when they go, as the inside collapses first, where the steel ones may burst? (I will have to look for the page to confirm that's what he said, can't seem to find it in google's cache even.) Further, the stiffer feel of the non-expanding steel lines offers less feedback than a system with more attenuation.
Again, I have to check later this week when the site is back up to see if I remember the details properly, there may have been more.
It has me convinced to buy 2 new rubber lines for my project rather than using the new stainless pair that came with my parts car. |
Braided are fine and will provide slightly better brake feel. As far as longevity...if you are concerned with hidden rot, just replace them at a reasonable interval for your conditions.
I suspect that braid/teflon lines would last decades, but have no experience.
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Rick
"Pumpkin II"
Stock 2L FI '77 Westy
CA Smog Stuff |
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nathansnathan
Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2008
Posts: 1671
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| merlinj79 wrote: |
| nathansnathan wrote: |
I read a description over on 914 site, I think it was the late Howard (?), why, for every reason, rubber lines are better than stainless. I can't get to it to find as the site is down, sadly.
IIrc, the post was saying the stainless lines have rubber inside which will eventually fail and you can't inspect them to see it coming. The rubber ones will show signs, like coming apart, bulging, cracking with age. Also, the rubber ones will lock the brakes up on you when they go, as the inside collapses first, where the steel ones may burst? (I will have to look for the page to confirm that's what he said, can't seem to find it in google's cache even.) Further, the stiffer feel of the non-expanding steel lines offers less feedback than a system with more attenuation.
Again, I have to check later this week when the site is back up to see if I remember the details properly, there may have been more.
It has me convinced to buy 2 new rubber lines for my project rather than using the new stainless pair that came with my parts car. |
Braided are fine and will provide slightly better brake feel. As far as longevity...if you are concerned with hidden rot, just replace them at a reasonable interval for your conditions.
I suspect that braid/teflon lines would last decades, but have no experience. |
I've managed to find the bit I was talking about in google's cache. Hopefully nine fourteen world will be up and running again.  Anyway, I think that he explains it better than I did.
| lapuwali wrote: |
What about braided stainless flex hoses?
These are commonly available, and people like them because they give better feel. Or so they think. The actual feel difference between fresh rubber hoses and braided lines is actually pretty small, and the improvement people note is usually wishful thinking, or they're replacing tired rubber lines with fresh stainless lines. The danger with stainless lines is that they require more maintenance and attention than rubber lines. Stainless lines are a braided covering over a Teflon hose. The braid is usually exposed, and gets dirty. This dirt works itself into the braid and begins chafing the relatively fragile Teflon hose underneath. This most often happens at the ends of the hose, near or under the crimped-on fittings. Given enough time, the Teflon hose will fail, usually with no warning. The result is a brake pedal that goes straight to the floor. If a front line fails, it also means nearly zero stopping power.
Rubber lines also fail over time, usually by swelling internally or cracking externally. This deterioration is slow, however, and there is lots of warning in the form of bad pedal feel and reduced braking, or obvious cracks in the hose. This process can often exist for months, so you have ample warning and time to get the car home and replace the brake hoses.
Stainless hoses are fine for racing use, as racecars are little used and frequently inspected. For a daily driven car, however, you're unlikely to inspect your brake lines nearly often enough, and the failure modes for stainless lines are hard to detect in advance. |
Great write up. There's a reason they named the classic threads forum after him over there. I'm not sure if Lupawali is Howard? Anyway good stuff on 914 brakes, as there was more about bigger master cylinders, calipers, etc. The part about the lines seems very applicable. |
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nathansnathan
Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2008
Posts: 1671
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:34 am Post subject: |
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Personally, I've found that failure of the rubber lines results in the brakes not releasing, as pressure back from the caliper is not as great as pressure coming from the master cylinder, seemingly. -so, you have brakes, but then you can't get very far once they fail because they are stuck on. Mine failed on my bus's maiden voyage, no idea how old they were, left me stranded in a nearby parking lot. If they were to burst though  |
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onehappykombi
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2017
Posts: 150
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| merlinj79 wrote: |
I suspect that braid/teflon lines would last decades, but have no experience. |
I can confirm my aftermarket oem style ones (rubber, probably chinese) lasted 14 years. Replaced them as preventative maintenance.
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'56 Early Split & '69 Early Bay
Overlanding the USA
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merlinj79
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2008
Posts: 379
Location: SOCAL
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Steel braided brake lines |
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Haha, got an email about this thread, blast from the past.
Reminds me, need to get my bus smogged and re-registered.
I'll add that 13 years later I do now have some experience with SS/teflon hoses on an Acura TSX, all good so far (SOCAL driving). Installed them myself eight years ago, specifically to improve what I deemed to be an excessively spongy brake feel for a sports car. Noticeable improvement (OEM hoses were about ten years old at that point).
I suspect (assume) that well known brands which sell aftermarket products like this in this day and age engineer them to last... you wouldn't stay in business very long if you sold major brake components which fail early and catastrophically with no warning. But the seed is planted, I'll do some research just to be safe and maybe replace them at some point. Although the brake loops on the TSX are split diagonally, so a single failure would still leave me one front brake and one rear.
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Rick
"Pumpkin II"
Stock 2L FI '77 Westy
CA Smog Stuff |
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