| Author |
Message |
TXCPerrone
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2023
Posts: 29
Location: Texas
|
 Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:57 pm Post subject: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
 |
|
I have a 1963 ragtop. It’s been converted to a 12V system. I’ve been cleaning up all the wiring. Two remaining issues. The LED headlights with turn signals, and they’re the kind with a ring, are wonky on the hi/low beams. The driver side works perfect. Big lower center bulb comes on with hi beams, just like I want. But on passenger side that same bulb is illuminated in regular headlight and goes off with the hi beam. Help!
Second. I have no brake lights. My taillights are the two kind. Bottom is running light. The top is the blinker. Which one illuminates for brakes? I ask because it’s the bottom bulb with two filaments. But I’m sure it was supposed to be the top that did it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34021
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| I have a 1963 ragtop. It’s been converted to a 12V system. I’ve been cleaning up all the wiring. Two remaining issues. The LED headlights with turn signals, and they’re the kind with a ring, are wonky on the hi/low beams. The driver side works perfect. Big lower center bulb comes on with hi beams, just like I want. But on passenger side that same bulb is illuminated in regular headlight and goes off with the hi beam. Help! |
Check wiring, especially ground wires for both headlights.
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| Second. I have no brake lights. My taillights are the two kind. Bottom is running light. The top is the blinker. Which one illuminates for brakes? I ask because it’s the bottom bulb with two filaments. But I’m sure it was supposed to be the top that did it. |
Nope, tops are single-filament turn signal only. Bottom is two-filament running/brake lights. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TXCPerrone
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2023
Posts: 29
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
| KTPhil wrote: |
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| I have a 1963 ragtop. It’s been converted to a 12V system. I’ve been cleaning up all the wiring. Two remaining issues. The LED headlights with turn signals, and they’re the kind with a ring, are wonky on the hi/low beams. The driver side works perfect. Big lower center bulb comes on with hi beams, just like I want. But on passenger side that same bulb is illuminated in regular headlight and goes off with the hi beam. Help! |
Check wiring, especially ground wires for both headlights.
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| Second. I have no brake lights. My taillights are the two kind. Bottom is running light. The top is the blinker. Which one illuminates for brakes? I ask because it’s the bottom bulb with two filaments. But I’m sure it was supposed to be the top that did it. |
Nope, tops are single-filament turn signal only. Bottom is two-filament running/brake lights. |
Thank you! Now I’m super confused on the brake lights then since the bottom is my two filament and the running works but can’t get any brake light. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34021
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
| Brake light faults can be switches on the master, fuse, wiring... the only solution is to check each one! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mukluk
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7028
Location: Clyde, TX
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
Two other common faults with the brake lights are either the brake and tail filaments are wired backwards, or the dual filament bulb has a bad ground. Wired backwards, the tail light ends up illuminating the bright filament which then makes the brake light very difficult to see if/when it's working. With a bad ground, the brake filament will end up using the tail light circuit as a ground -- this works somewhat when the tail lights are off, but stops working once the tail light circuit is powered.
Speaking of which, it sounds like your passenger headlight has a bad ground.
_________________
1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TXCPerrone
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2023
Posts: 29
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
I do think the headlight is a ground issue, but it’s not super important right now to me. I’ve got them working well enough for this car. I just toot around in it, mostly in the day light.
I am confused on the brakes. The two wires, when pressed together, hooked to the far right terminals on the fuse box, car in accessories mode, nothing. However, the tail lights work and it’s the same bulb. In examining the tail light fixture tonight I noticed the bulbs are running SUPER hot. Like melted the plastic onto the bulb. They brake light doesn’t work even when tail lights are off. I got the bulbs from Auto Zone. I think they’re the wrong bulbs as we cannot confirm that the brakes worked at all with the new bulbs. Could this be the issue? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mukluk
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7028
Location: Clyde, TX
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| ... The two wires, when pressed together, hooked to the far right terminals on the fuse box, car in accessories mode, nothing. However, the tail lights work and it’s the same bulb. |
I'm not following here. There isn't a pair of wires connected to the fuse box that you can touch to each other and get the brake lights to come on. You can touch the two wires together where they connect to the brake light switch, or you can touch the red/black striped wire which runs back to the brake lights to a power source.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bug_62.jpg
What is the number stamped into the metal base of the bulbs you have? If you went into the parts store and asked for bulbs to fit a '63 Bug, then most likely they sold you 6 volt bulbs and not the 12 volt versions which you now need due to the 12v conversion.
_________________
1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TXCPerrone
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2023
Posts: 29
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:07 am Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
| Sorry about that. The wires at the fuse box are connected together. It’s a red black and a yellow black. That are in one little female end. Those two wires split and are mounted separately to the brake switch. So I plug the one end to the fuse box and then pull each wire off the brake switch and touch them together and nothing happens. I did this to confirm it wasn’t the switch. So since they never work, I assume the switch is fine. And am focused on figuring out how to get brake lights to come on back there at any point. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TXCPerrone
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2023
Posts: 29
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
| The bulbs are stamped 1154. I think they’re wrong. Because they’re blown and were getting too hot. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MrGoodtunes
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2012
Posts: 852
Location: South Florida
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| The bulbs are stamped 1154 ... |
I'm pretty sure 1154 is a 6-volt dual filament bulb. Since your electrical system has been converted to 12 volt, you need the equivalent 12-volt bulb: 1157 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mukluk
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7028
Location: Clyde, TX
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
The yellow and black wire is supposed to be the power wire for your horn, not anything to do with your brake lights. See the wiring diagram I linked in my earlier post to get an idea of what is what and where things should be connected. Your brake light switch wiring should be red and black only all the way from the fuse block to the brake light switch and back to the multi inline connector back in the engine bay.
Yep, you were sold the wrong bulbs. As noted you should have 1157 bulbs in the dual filament positions. It'd be a good idea to go back through the rest of your bulbs to make sure you don't still have any other 6v bulbs installed. Next time you go to your FLAPS for bulbs, look/ask for ones for a '67 Bug instead of a '63.
_________________
1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:03 am Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| The bulbs are stamped 1154. I think they’re wrong. |
Sounds like the first thing you need to do is remove all the exterior bulbs and make sure they are 12v and not 6v. While you are there, make sure the bulbs match the sockets. Single filament bulbs are inserted into sockets with a single contact down at the bottom. Dual filament bulbs will have 2 contacts on their bottom and mate with a socket with 2 contacts at its bottom.
Don't mix up the bulbs and sockets.
Test the bulbs in their sockets. Using a jumper wire with 12v+ (if needed, use your battery jumper cable to bring 12v close to the light assembly wiring. The brake light wire is black/red. Look at the junction in the left side of the engine bay and find the black/red wire. Apply 12v to this junction and both brake lights should light up. Apply 12v to the grey/black and grey/red wires to power the parking lights (left/right). Apply the 12v to the black/white and black/green wires to power the turn signals (left/right). The brake and turn signal lamps should be the brighter (25w) filaments. The parking lights should be the dimmer (5W) filaments.
If applying voltage here lights all the taillight lamps as expected you know your bulbs are working. You problem is between the power source (fuse box) and this junction in the engine compartment.
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| The wires at the fuse box are connected together. It’s a red black and a yellow black. That are in one little female end. |
This sounds okay. The black/yellow horn wire and the black/red brake lights wire are both powered by the same #1 fuse (closest to the left door in the fuse box).
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| Those two wires split and are mounted separately to the brake switch. |
This sounds odd. The black/yellow horn wire runs to the horn. It has nothing to do with the brakes. The black/red brake light wire runs to the brake switch on the master cylinder. Other than them starting from the same fuse, there should be no other connectivity between these two wires. Look at the wiring diagram for the '63 model year. You can see the two wires only come together at the fuse box and no where else.
Did I read that you tested the black/red wire at the fuse box with the ignition switch in the ON/RUN position and there was no power there??? That indicates no power to the brake switch. At that point it doesn't matter if the brake switch, wiring and bulbs all work... no power to the brake circuit and nothing will work.
Have you checked the #1 fuse at the fuse box? With the key in the ON/RUN position test both ends of the fuse with a test lamp or VM. You should get a voltage reading at both ends.
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| So I plug the one end to the fuse box and then pull each wire off the brake switch and touch them together and nothing happens. I did this to confirm it wasn’t the switch. So since they never work, I assume the switch is fine. And am focused on figuring out how to get brake lights to come on back there at any point. |
Your assumption that the switch is good is incorrect. You haven't proven that at all. If you by passed the switch by connecting the two brake switch wires together and the brake lights worked and when the wires were connected to the switch the brake light did not work... that points to the problem being the switch. But if you cannot get the brake lights working you have not isolated anything yet. Even the test above where you apply power to the taillight wires and test the rear lamps. If that works, it confirms the taillights all work, but your problem could be in any of the wires or switches towards the front of the car. These have not yet been tested as good or not good.
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| Now I’m super confused on the brake lights then since the bottom is my two filament and the running works but can’t get any brake light. |
The brake circuit and parking brake circuit are separate circuits. They come together into the two separate filaments of the dual-filament bulb at the rear. Your parking light circuit is working so powers the parking light filament. Something is wrong in your brake light circuit preventing the brighter brake light filament from turning ON. Just because they share the same bulb doesn't mean one circuit is dependent on the other. At most, they share the same ground.
A dual-filament bulb (1157) is functionally two lamps in a single housing, but still two lamps.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:09 am Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| The LED headlights with turn signals, and they’re the kind with a ring, are wonky on the hi/low beams. The driver side works perfect. Big lower center bulb comes on with hi beams, just like I want. But on passenger side that same bulb is illuminated in regular headlight and goes off with the hi beam. Help! |
Did you get this working? I suspect your wiring is mixed up at the headlight socket. Here is a diagram from Speedy Jim's site showing how the wiring at the headlight socket should be connected. Check that your wiring matches the below. You could also test the wires at the female plug and make sure the correct wires are powered when the headlights are low/high. The yellow wire is low beam. The white wire is the high beam.
If you didn't know the wiring you might make the incorrect assumption that the high/low (white/yellow) wires should be opposite each other and the ground is the offset one. This is NOT how the headlights are wired. Follow the above diagram.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TXCPerrone
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2023
Posts: 29
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
| ashman40 wrote: |
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| The LED headlights with turn signals, and they’re the kind with a ring, are wonky on the hi/low beams. The driver side works perfect. Big lower center bulb comes on with hi beams, just like I want. But on passenger side that same bulb is illuminated in regular headlight and goes off with the hi beam. Help! |
Did you get this working? I suspect your wiring is mixed up at the headlight socket. Here is a diagram from Speedy Jim's site showing how the wiring at the headlight socket should be connected. Check that your wiring matches the below. You could also test the wires at the female plug and make sure the correct wires are powered when the headlights are low/high. The yellow wire is low beam. The white wire is the high beam.
If you didn't know the wiring you might make the incorrect assumption that the high/low (white/yellow) wires should be opposite each other and the ground is the offset one. This is NOT how the headlights are wired. Follow the above diagram. |
I did got this fixed and you are correct that the headlight is wired wrong. However the wiring into the headlight connector with the 3 prongs is not changeable. Like I can’t pull them out. And the colors are always all wrong. Reds go here when they should be black and yellows go where whites should be. So it’s a mess from the PO. I need to make sure I have the good ground and then just play with the combination of yellows and whites at the fuse box (in my opinion) to determine which ones are which, because I know I can’t rely on wire colors. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TXCPerrone
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2023
Posts: 29
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
| MrGoodtunes wrote: |
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| The bulbs are stamped 1154 ... |
I'm pretty sure 1154 is a 6-volt dual filament bulb. Since your electrical system has been converted to 12 volt, you need the equivalent 12-volt bulb: 1157 |
Yes. I specifically asked for 12v bulbs and the guy gave me 1963 bulbs. Which are 6v by default. My bad for not looking at the package. Lesson learned! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TXCPerrone
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2023
Posts: 29
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
| mukluk wrote: |
The yellow and black wire is supposed to be the power wire for your horn, not anything to do with your brake lights. See the wiring diagram I linked in my earlier post to get an idea of what is what and where things should be connected. Your brake light switch wiring should be red and black only all the way from the fuse block to the brake light switch and back to the multi inline connector back in the engine bay.
Yep, you were sold the wrong bulbs. As noted you should have 1157 bulbs in the dual filament positions. It'd be a good idea to go back through the rest of your bulbs to make sure you don't still have any other 6v bulbs installed. Next time you go to your FLAPS for bulbs, look/ask for ones for a '67 Bug instead of a '63. |
Okay. You’re right. The yellow back does go to my horn. And two red blacks go to my brake light switch on the MC. My horn doesn’t work though because the steering column rubs. So I have the black yellow plugged in with the red black, but I have the horn’s ground removed, otherwise my horn honks 100%. I know how to repair the horn issue with the steering column rubber seals but don’t have the ability to do that at home alone, so when the body work gets done, I’ll do it then. In the meantime I just don’t have a horn.
Any issue with the horn’s yellow black running to power but being ungrounded? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TXCPerrone
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2023
Posts: 29
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
| ashman40 wrote: |
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| The bulbs are stamped 1154. I think they’re wrong. |
Sounds like the first thing you need to do is remove all the exterior bulbs and make sure they are 12v and not 6v. While you are there, make sure the bulbs match the sockets. Single filament bulbs are inserted into sockets with a single contact down at the bottom. Dual filament bulbs will have 2 contacts on their bottom and mate with a socket with 2 contacts at its bottom.
Don't mix up the bulbs and sockets.
Test the bulbs in their sockets. Using a jumper wire with 12v+ (if needed, use your battery jumper cable to bring 12v close to the light assembly wiring. The brake light wire is black/red. Look at the junction in the left side of the engine bay and find the black/red wire. Apply 12v to this junction and both brake lights should light up. Apply 12v to the grey/black and grey/red wires to power the parking lights (left/right). Apply the 12v to the black/white and black/green wires to power the turn signals (left/right). The brake and turn signal lamps should be the brighter (25w) filaments. The parking lights should be the dimmer (5W) filaments.
If applying voltage here lights all the taillight lamps as expected you know your bulbs are working. You problem is between the power source (fuse box) and this junction in the engine compartment.
Thankfully my problem was just bad bulbs. Using 6V. With new 12V bulbs, the brake lights work!!
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| The wires at the fuse box are connected together. It’s a red black and a yellow black. That are in one little female end. |
This sounds okay. The black/yellow horn wire and the black/red brake lights wire are both powered by the same #1 fuse (closest to the left door in the fuse box).
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| Those two wires split and are mounted separately to the brake switch. |
This sounds odd. The black/yellow horn wire runs to the horn. It has nothing to do with the brakes. The black/red brake light wire runs to the brake switch on the master cylinder. Other than them starting from the same fuse, there should be no other connectivity between these two wires. Look at the wiring diagram for the '63 model year. You can see the two wires only come together at the fuse box and no where else.
You are right. I have two black red wires on the brake light switch but one comes from the brake lights and the other from the fuse box. That’s why I have two wires at the brake light switch! Thanks for the tip!
Did I read that you tested the black/red wire at the fuse box with the ignition switch in the ON/RUN position and there was no power there??? That indicates no power to the brake switch. At that point it doesn't matter if the brake switch, wiring and bulbs all work... no power to the brake circuit and nothing will work.
Have you checked the #1 fuse at the fuse box? With the key in the ON/RUN position test both ends of the fuse with a test lamp or VM. You should get a voltage reading at both ends.
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| So I plug the one end to the fuse box and then pull each wire off the brake switch and touch them together and nothing happens. I did this to confirm it wasn’t the switch. So since they never work, I assume the switch is fine. And am focused on figuring out how to get brake lights to come on back there at any point. |
Your assumption that the switch is good is incorrect. You haven't proven that at all. If you by passed the switch by connecting the two brake switch wires together and the brake lights worked and when the wires were connected to the switch the brake light did not work... that points to the problem being the switch. But if you cannot get the brake lights working you have not isolated anything yet. Even the test above where you apply power to the taillight wires and test the rear lamps. If that works, it confirms the taillights all work, but your problem could be in any of the wires or switches towards the front of the car. These have not yet been tested as good or not good.
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| Now I’m super confused on the brake lights then since the bottom is my two filament and the running works but can’t get any brake light. |
The brake circuit and parking brake circuit are separate circuits. They come together into the two separate filaments of the dual-filament bulb at the rear. Your parking light circuit is working so powers the parking light filament. Something is wrong in your brake light circuit preventing the brighter brake light filament from turning ON. Just because they share the same bulb doesn't mean one circuit is dependent on the other. At most, they share the same ground.
A dual-filament bulb (1157) is functionally two lamps in a single housing, but still two lamps. |
Thanks. This helped a lot to understand the wiring better! I generally knew what I mean but did not explain well and now understanding better from your details it makes sense!
Thankfully everything is now working! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TXCPerrone
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2023
Posts: 29
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
Thank you everyone for the many many helpful tips! I got the brake lights working and know how to fix the headlights. I will work on those, and just not drive at night in the interim.
But now I have new bigger problem in my fuse which I will post separately. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mukluk
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7028
Location: Clyde, TX
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:31 pm Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
| TXCPerrone wrote: |
| Any issue with the horn’s yellow black running to power but being ungrounded? |
A power wire and load which aren't connected to a ground will not draw any current, it's effectively a dead end or open circuit. The only issue that may arise is if the power wire gets damaged and shorts to ground.
_________________
1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jinx758
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2014
Posts: 699
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:43 am Post subject: Re: LED Ring headlights and turn signal pair and brake light issue |
|
|
Good grounds ...
Clean & tite terminals ...
Scrape bulb bottoms ...
Scrape springy contact at bottom of socket ...
Use pick to clean bulb pins & sockets where bulb's touch in grooves ...
Install bulb's correctly ...
Member of car club jammed his in 180* out. DOH !
Wired correctly ...
Kool headlights - I like the look
Best luck ... stay safe
jinx
_________________
" It's not valuable unless you learn something from an experience. " Henry Ford
It's not unlike the same difference
You can't push a rope
VALVES (cold)
POINTS
TIMING
CARB (fully warmed engine)
SCRAPE ALL GROUNDS
My Craigslist rescued 100 footer :
1971 Standard Bug
1776cc dual port
034 distributor
38mm EGAS Carburetor |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
