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Electric vehicles are bad
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oprn
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

It's like the belief that black cats bring bad luck. In my view all cats bring bad luck but the worst ones are really the ones with white stripes and a big fuzzy tail!

E cars are the future? Sure but so are gasoline cars, diesel cars, propane cars, natural gas cars, maybe even N2 cars... some day. The more choice we have the brighter the future! Competition is the basis for a healthy market. If everything gets changed over to electric that leaves the market wide open to power companies gouging the public.

And don't think for one moment they will not take advantage of that opportunity!
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Floating VW
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 8:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

nbvolks wrote:
Floating VW wrote:
Perhaps that's because 99% of EV owners are opulent city-dwellers?

Why's that the thing for you? It starts coming off as smug jealousy when you come at it from that angle. But, let's go with your assumption. IF it were true that it's only being adopted by "opulent city-dwellers" (it is not), then what's it to you? If it works for them, so be it.

Hold your fire, comrade! I'm not trying to knock the way another cat swings (I'm not even sure it's possible to be both smug and jealous at the same time). If you or anybody else wants to own an EV, for whatever reason, I'm totally cool with that.

It only becomes a real problem when our politicians (all of whom, as a general rule, are opulent city-dwellers) start crafting policies which only make sense inside their own personal bubbles, and then try to force these policies on the rest of the populace.

Just curious, but why do you assume most EV owners are NOT opulent city-dwellers (or wealthy suburbanites, whatever)?

nbvolks wrote:
Again, price out building a tube based console TV. That's no longer cheaper. Manufacturing a car is more than just "poof" it exists. You need tooling, design, years of development. At some point ICE vehicle development will be more expensive.

Comparing an EV to an ICE is not the same thing as comparing a 50 year-old TV to a modern TV. Regardless of how technologically advanced they are, ICE vehicles are made of mostly steel, aluminum, plastic and glass. EV's are made of those same materials, PLUS a very large quantity of highly expensive (and usually rare) metals such as copper, cobalt, lithium, neodymium and dysprosium.

I expect the EV of tomorrow will eventually be cheaper than the EV of today, but unless they figure out how to make it without all the rare metals, it will ALWAYS cost more to manufacture than an equivalent ICE.

nbvolks wrote:
Do you also try very hard to know the source of your clothing?

Yes. I only buy clothes that are not made of cobalt. They chafe too much.

nbvolks wrote:
The entire initial premise behind EVs as emissions mitigation was that the average American drives <40 miles per day. That's the reality. It may not be your reality, but for most it is. To that end, even the cheapest EV on the market meets and exceeds those needs several fold.

Exceeds 40 miles a day, several fold? Hah! Tell that to Steve's Leaf!

But seriously, here's the problem with that logic: the "average" is not necessarily the same thing as the "majority".

For example, if you have 50 rural people who drive 80 miles a day, and 50 city people who drive zero miles a day, the average for those 100 people is still 40 miles per day. If a policy is made based on that average of 40 miles per day, fully half of those 100 people are gonna be screwed.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

yep depends how you look at it.
People think I'm nuts driving the old VW year round, but....compared to what?
I tell them it's waaay better than a vespa

Most all agree.

These electric scooters are all over town, but those things are total junk compared the vespa as a noodle delivery vehicle but they may re-evolve in a positive direction again once they re-discover center of gravity and air resistance. just a matter of if or when anybody gets a clue. Could happen any time or never.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:38 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

Just as the price of ICE vehicles doesn't go down, neither will the price of an EV go down. Regardless of the cost of raw materials, wages & benefits will soar.
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Floating VW
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

nbvolks wrote:
A restaurant or hotel on a roadtrip is not the destination. They're stops you need to make along a roadtrip because we're human beings, not automatons. So let me restate it again as clearly as possible. When I take roadtrips in my ICE vehicle, I need to make stops to refuel it regardless of my needs, so I need to go to a gas station, which may or may not conveniently be on my route. When I've taken roadtrips in my EV I have only had to "refuel" it while already doing normal things that you do on a roadtrip, like stop to eat lunch. I have not had to go out of my way, or make an additional stop for the sole purpose of charging the car.

I would say restaurants and hotels can be either a destination, or a brief stop on your way to somewhere else, depending on what your goals are for the day.

If you believe gas stations are inconveniently located and public charging stations are everywhere you may need to stop, then I think perhaps your personal lifestyle and the area you live in are skewing your perspective a little. Haven't you seen the video of the poor dude who tried to drive his Rivian from Jersey to S.C. and back?

Where I live, there is a gas station with a mini-mart on pretty much every street corner. The only public charging station I am aware of is in the parking lot of the swanky golf course where all the heavy hitters go to show off their Tesla's. I could be wrong, but I believe most of the world is living closer to my reality than to yours.

nbvolks wrote:
Because those things don't exist where you are, doesn't mean they don't exist elsewhere already. . . This also isn't showing all of them, as it will show more if you zoom in. (note how it shows none in Denver zoomed out this far, which is obviously wrong).

https://i.imgur.com/8FuIaMT.jpeg

I sincerely hope, for your sake and for the sake of all EV owners, that there are more charging stations available than what were on that map, 'cause according to that map, there are only 472 charging stations in about 40% of the continental United States and southern Canada!

Something else I would like to point out: I can go to a gas station and get a full tank of gas in a matter of minutes (as "inconvenient" as that may be); I've never had to wait in line to get gas. Charging an EV for anything more than a short hop requires considerably more time. Even if that can be done while you are doing something else, what do you do when the charging station is already occupied?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 8:52 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

Okay, people say EV's are horrible on the environment just because of the rare earth materials needed to create the batteries etc., but regular cars are pretty bad on the environment as well, just by being more complicated and requiring like probably hundreds of more little pieces/parts to keep them running, right?

I mean, an emissions system on a modern car with a catalytic converter, an evap canister connected to a gas tank with a purge valve for the engine that has an engine air filter connected to a throttle body, with an engine that has pistons and connecting rods and gets fresh oil every 5k miles (and probably leaks or burns a considerable amount of that oil into the environment) which is filtered by engine oil filters that are replaced sometimes just as frequently and dumped into land fills, etc. has gotta add up to like SO much extra pollution from various manufacturers that all have to pollute the earth in order to make their variously sized pieces that fit into a modern car to make it go...

Tell me I'm wrong! :p
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:22 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

It's all smoke and mirrors, it comes down to what the masses are tricked into believing what is best for humanity.
Especially, in today's mentality or lack of , just change the meaning of words..voila
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

hobthebob wrote:
Okay, people say EV's are horrible on the environment just because of the rare earth materials needed to create the batteries etc., but regular cars are pretty bad on the environment as well, just by being more complicated and requiring like probably hundreds of more little pieces/parts to keep them running, right?

I mean, an emissions system on a modern car with a catalytic converter, an evap canister connected to a gas tank with a purge valve for the engine that has an engine air filter connected to a throttle body, with an engine that has pistons and connecting rods and gets fresh oil every 5k miles (and probably leaks or burns a considerable amount of that oil into the environment) which is filtered by engine oil filters that are replaced sometimes just as frequently and dumped into land fills, etc. has gotta add up to like SO much extra pollution from various manufacturers that all have to pollute the earth in order to make their variously sized pieces that fit into a modern car to make it go...

Tell me I'm wrong! :p


Hey there. How many pages of this thread have you read? I believe all your questions have been answered, debated, debunked, and still being regurgitated and challenged. Get caught up man and bring it Wink Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

Xevin, I don't have the patience to spend all day reading pages upon pages of debates and back and forth's! I want an answer, and I want it now, gosh darn it!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

hobthebob wrote:
Xevin, I don't have the patience to spend all day reading pages upon pages of debates and back and forth's! I want an answer, and I want it now, gosh darn it!


Laughing Laughing Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 10:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

Quote:
I've never had to wait in line to get gas.


How quickly they forget….
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
Quote:
I've never had to wait in line to get gas.


How quickly they forget….


Totally right. The USA will not be held hostage by a raw material embargo. We will not be dependent on cheaper foreign resources again. Brick wall Not talking
History has proven this Shocked Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:39 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

I don't know Xevin, we're getting pretty soft and fat, if we get more taters in powerful positions, what we gonna do about it?
As evidenced in the past 750+ days we just sit around and do nothing.
Get high and watch the tube..... and complain
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

Floating VW wrote:

Just curious, but why do you assume most EV owners are NOT opulent city-dwellers (or wealthy suburbanites, whatever)?


I didn't say that most are not. You're the one that keeps equating EV ownership with "opulent city dwellers". I'm simply stating that the reality is that not all EV owners are city-dwellers, or even "opulent" for that matter. When you speak like that, it comes off less as a discussion on the merits of a form of transportation (EVs) and more a pre-canned perspective meant to work an existing political narrative. And that's unfortunate.

Floating VW wrote:

Comparing an EV to an ICE is not the same thing as comparing a 50 year-old TV to a modern TV. Regardless of how technologically advanced they are, ICE vehicles are made of mostly steel, aluminum, plastic and glass. EV's are made of those same materials, PLUS a very large quantity of highly expensive (and usually rare) metals such as copper, cobalt, lithium, neodymium and dysprosium.

I expect the EV of tomorrow will eventually be cheaper than the EV of today, but unless they figure out how to make it without all the rare metals, it will ALWAYS cost more to manufacture than an equivalent ICE.


You're simply ignoring production processes ranging from design to implementation and the economies of scale required. It's absolutely possible for ICE vehicles to eventually be more expensive to manufacture, just as the tube tv example. A product is more than the some of it's parts, when it comes to cost. Maybe a more direct comparison would be coach built cars of yore. I mean, they're only made of wood, leather, and other simple materials, right? Cheap. Except for when you actually need the people specialized in woodworking, leatherworks, and know how to turn all of that into a usable automobile.

ICE is cheaper now because it's the predominant product, with most manufacturers sharing drivetrain components, or entire drivetrains between multiple chassis. That economy of scale flips as the share of ICE/EV production changes.

Floating VW wrote:

Yes. I only buy clothes that are not made of cobalt. They chafe too much.


Deflection

Floating VW wrote:

Exceeds 40 miles a day, several fold? Hah! Tell that to Steve's Leaf!


Certainly you see the flaw in this logic right? Because every ICE has the same "range", or power, or seating capacity, or whatever metric you want to use. Not everyone needs, or wants to pay for, the capacity to drive 300, 400, 500+ miles on a single charge. Just as not everyone wants to buy a truck simply to have the capacity to haul a large load of stuff.

Floating VW wrote:

But seriously, here's the problem with that logic: the "average" is not necessarily the same thing as the "majority".

For example, if you have 50 rural people who drive 80 miles a day, and 50 city people who drive zero miles a day, the average for those 100 people is still 40 miles per day. If a policy is made based on that average of 40 miles per day, fully half of those 100 people are gonna be screwed.


First lets be clear. You do understand that the cars can drive further than 40 miles, right? Or put another way, that there are plenty of, if not all, EVs that can exceed that with ease.

Second, if only there were a way to view how many miles people drive based on their location type. Oh, wait, that data does exist!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And you can slice it and dice it however you'd like.

https://nhts.ornl.gov/

Point here is that even at the two extremes of rural vs urban, you're talking about 38.5 miles/day vs. 24.3 miles/day.

I'd also point out that those are the mean driving values, but obviously, if we're talking about actual volume of people, there are more people living in urban, suburban, and exurban areas than there are in rural areas. So in terms of fleet volume, there's a crap ton more cars and miles driven in those settings than in rural settings. Which goes back to my point that, just like ICE cars, there are (or will be) options to fit different needs and use cases. And given that we're really only a decade into sort of the "modern" EV, it seems unrealistic to castigate them as a failure.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

i love it when people resort to bullet points, and retorts! like theyre in a court of law, hahah seem to take yourself VERY seriously. Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

Floating VW wrote:

I would say restaurants and hotels can be either a destination, or a brief stop on your way to somewhere else, depending on what your goals are for the day.


Right, and I'm saying they can, and do, serve a dual purpose if you have an EV. They serve as a point to charge and remove the need to go to another place for the sole purpose of refueling.

Floating VW wrote:
If you believe gas stations are inconveniently located and public charging stations are everywhere you may need to stop, then I think perhaps your personal lifestyle and the area you live in are skewing your perspective a little. Haven't you seen the video of the poor dude who tried to drive his Rivian from Jersey to S.C. and back?


It's not about gas stations being "inconveniently located", it's about a shift away from that paradigm. You don't need a charging station on every street corner, because the frequency with which you recharge in that way isn't the same as how you refuel. Imagine if some portion (any portion) of ICE vehicles could be fueled at home. Do you think there would be the same number of corner gas stations as there are now? Especially if your fuel at home was cheaper? That's sort of the point here. And yes, I hear you, not everyone has, or will have access to home charging. But that number is still higher, right now, than the number of people that have access to home fueling.

And I've driven through out the NE and Mid-Atlantic, plus throughout Texas, and never had a problem. About to do it again in Texas later in May.

Floating VW wrote:
nbvolks wrote:
Because those things don't exist where you are, doesn't mean they don't exist elsewhere already. . . This also isn't showing all of them, as it will show more if you zoom in. (note how it shows none in Denver zoomed out this far, which is obviously wrong).

https://i.imgur.com/8FuIaMT.jpeg

I sincerely hope, for your sake and for the sake of all EV owners, that there are more charging stations available than what were on that map, 'cause according to that map, there are only 472 charging stations in about 40% of the continental United States and southern Canada!


Did you even read the quote you're responding to? I said, "This also isn't showing all of them, as it will show more if you zoom in. (note how it shows none in Denver zoomed out this far, which is obviously wrong)".

And again, because of A) the current volume of EVs, and B) how you actually use them vs. ICE refueling, you do not need the same volume of charging stations as you currently do need gas stations.

Floating VW wrote:
Something else I would like to point out: I can go to a gas station and get a full tank of gas in a matter of minutes (as "inconvenient" as that may be); I've never had to wait in line to get gas. Charging an EV for anything more than a short hop requires considerably more time. Even if that can be done while you are doing something else, what do you do when the charging station is already occupied?


I already addressed this. I've never had to wait more than 5 minutes for a charging station to open up, which isn't all that different than waiting for a pump at a busy gas station. Second, I need to use public charging a tiny fraction of the amount of times I need to stop at a gas station. So even if I did have to wait 15 minutes, that, in the grand scheme of things, is less time than the total time I've spent doing anything at a gas station.

I don't know what a "short hop" is for you. 250 miles is beyond what any person in my family would allow me to go before one of them asks to stop for food or a bathroom break.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

Laughing

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...023-03-20/
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
Laughing

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...023-03-20/


Was already posted and already responded to.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

nbvolks wrote:
Floating VW wrote:

Just curious, but why do you assume most EV owners are NOT opulent city-dwellers ? . . .

I didn't say that most are not. You're the one that keeps equating EV ownership with "opulent city dwellers". I'm simply stating that the reality is that not all EV owners are city-dwellers, or even "opulent" for that matter. When you speak like that, it comes off less as a discussion on the merits of a form of transportation (EVs) and more a pre-canned perspective meant to work an existing political narrative. And that's unfortunate.

You seem excessively triggered by my use of the term "opulent city-dweller." I'm not sure why. None of those words are even remotely pejorative.

I merely use them because they are accurate descriptors: In my opinion, anyone who can afford the luxury of an EV is opulent; EV's are considerably more viable in densely populated regions than they are in sparsely populated regions, i.e., city-dweller. I also did not say all EV owners are opulent city-dwellers; only that the (vast) majority are.

And you still didn't answer my question (but don't feel obligated if you don't want to).

nbvolks wrote:
You're simply ignoring production processes ranging from design to implementation and the economies of scale required. . .

Not at all. You, however, are still using bad analogies to dance around hard facts. ICE and EV are, by and large, designed and manufactured by the exact same processes. Why would they not be? Sure, the tooling might be a bit different, but the tooling is always a bit different. That leaves the materials they are made from as the only real "cost" difference between the two (unless you want to include the amount of government subsidies and corporate greed that gets thrown into the mix). So I'll stand by what I said before: Selling more and more EV's will only make the newer EV's cheaper to manufacture than previous EV's. It will not make them cheaper than ICE vehicles.

nbvolks wrote:
Floating VW wrote:

Yes. I only buy clothes that are not made of cobalt. They chafe too much.

Deflection

Lighten up, man. Not everything is a fallacy of logic. Throwing in a little humor is generally considered a useful tactic when arguing with someone who is stuck in a cognitive dissonance loop . . . unless that person doesn't have a sense of humor, apparently.

nbvolks wrote:
Floating VW wrote:

Exceeds 40 miles a day, several fold? Hah! Tell that to Steve's Leaf!

Certainly you see the flaw in this logic right? . . . Just as not everyone wants to buy a truck simply to have the capacity to haul a large load of stuff.

Again, I refer you to my above comment on humor (and no offense to Steve. As long as you don't try to drive more than 40 miles a day, I'm sure that Leaf is a beautiful machine!).

nbvolks wrote:
Second, if only there were a way to view how many miles people drive based on their location type. Oh, wait, that data does exist!

https://i.imgur.com/W1SZs0A.jpeg

And you can slice it and dice it however you'd like.

https://nhts.ornl.gov/

That is some interesting data, unfortunately, it's still not very useful, and for the same reason as before. Those numbers are a collection of "averages". You can't design a thing based on "averages" and expect it to work well for the people at the extremes (unless you want to pretend that the people at the extremes don't exist, regardless of what percentage of the population they comprise). That's obtuse, Harrison Bergeron-style thinking.

nbvolks wrote:
And given that we're really only a decade into sort of the "modern" EV, it seems unrealistic to castigate them as a failure.

And yet, it seems sufficient to declare them an unequivocal success worthy of replacing every other form of transportation on the planet, by mandate, if necessary.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 7:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad Reply with quote

Xevin wrote:
Abscate wrote:
Quote:
I've never had to wait in line to get gas.

How quickly they forget….

Totally right. The USA will not be held hostage by a raw material embargo. We will not be dependent on cheaper foreign resources again. Brick wall Not talking
History has proven this Shocked Laughing

Ah, perhaps I should have been more specific: I have never had to wait in line at the pump because it was taking too long for the person in front of me to refuel their vehicle.

1970's style, fuel-shortage lines at the gas stations are a completely different animal.

P.S. Don't worry, Xevin. I'm sure the world's supply of lithium, cobalt, neodymium and dysprosium are far more abundant than the supply of petroleum. And for sure, extracting these minerals from the ground will cause far less damage than extracting fossil fuels. There will be no geo-political shenanigans to speak of . . . none, whatsoever. So really, it's a win-win!

P.P.S. Actually Xevin, the above probably isn't true, it's just me trying to be a smart ass at 1 o'clock in the morning.
_________________
"It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works."


Last edited by Floating VW on Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
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