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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16849
Location: sticksville, ct.
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 Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| nbvolks wrote: |
Bear in mind, that EV cost is IF you didn't have the free charging agreement |
My God...
one thing you EV people like to pounce on is the word "free"
it's not. someone, somewhere is paying for it. You are paying for it with your electric bill, added cost to the car, the places you charging at marking up their prices on goods sold to cover the cost... it's not FREE
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Floating VW
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 1596
Location: The South Zone
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| nbvolks wrote: |
| It's not about gas stations being "inconveniently located", it's about a shift away from that paradigm . . . Do you think there would be the same number of corner gas stations as there are now? |
For sure, there would be fewer in the city. But the ones on the freeway probably wouldn't change as much.
And let's talk about that shift in the paradigm: Let's say, hypothetically, that we do go all-electric by 2035. Can you not see any hugely negative effects this sudden shift might have on all the people whose livelihood is directly and/or indirectly dependent on the current paradigm?
| nbvolks wrote: |
| And I've driven through out the NE and Mid-Atlantic, plus throughout Texas, and never had a problem . . . |
I'm willing to bet the reason you don't have a problem has more to do with you changing your own lifestyle, rather than with all the machinery adapting to your needs.
And if you're willing to do that, then more power to you (no pun intended).
Me personally, I think it's a step backwards. I don't want a machine that I have to babysit all the time, and remember to plug in everywhere I go, like a damn cell phone. I don't want a machine that I have to program my route based on where the charging stations are, or limit how far I can travel in a day.
And if the shit ever hits the fan (and I'm quite serious about this), I very much like the idea that, with a few basic plumbing supplies, I can easily convert my car to run on propane, methane or even firewood. I can't do that with an EV.
| nbvolks wrote: |
| Floating VW wrote: |
| I sincerely hope, for your sake and for the sake of all EV owners, that there are more charging stations available than what were on that map, 'cause according to that map, there are only 472 charging stations in about 40% of the continental United States and southern Canada! |
Did you even read the quote you're responding to? . . . |
Of course I read the quote. That's why I said that I sincerely hoped it was true. Was that not clear?
| nbvolks wrote: |
| And again, because of A) the current volume of EVs, and B) how you actually use them vs. ICE refueling, you do not need the same volume of charging stations as you currently do need gas stations. |
Except for when you do. Have you not seen any of the videos of Tesla's lined up all the way around the block, waiting for their turn at the charging station?
Sure, you can say this is the exception to the rule now, but don't expect it to stay that way forever.
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"It's time you started treating people as individuals, rather than mathematically predictable members of an aggregate set, regardless of how well that works." |
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Bonesberg55
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 4:33 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Its okay to say "fat"! Being that EVs are substantially heavier, they theoretically can hold more payload? Not! |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22633
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:14 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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EVs are viewed as a California thing because of the huge , outlying percent if EV registrations, 42%.
The next highest states are Florida, Texas, and Washington currently at 5-6%
All states ( except CA) are showing year to year growth of 50% + , even most rural Vermont.
The US is an 80% urban, 20% rural population.
Once you Don the lens of prepper mentality, rational thought and discussion end. I’ve got a backup plan of a hot water heater tank full of gas in the back seat of v70 so I’m set
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.ssS! |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22633
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Quote: |
| the places you charging at marking up their prices on goods sold to cover the cost... it's not FREE |
…or places marking it down reflecting lower cost of customer acquisition , like what convenience stores do with gas today.
As noted upthread, EV make every retail experience a refueling opportunity and that fact isn’t lost on business models
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nbvolks
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2020
Posts: 344
Location: MA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Floating VW wrote: |
| nbvolks wrote: |
| Floating VW wrote: |
Just curious, but why do you assume most EV owners are NOT opulent city-dwellers ? . . . |
I didn't say that most are not. You're the one that keeps equating EV ownership with "opulent city dwellers". I'm simply stating that the reality is that not all EV owners are city-dwellers, or even "opulent" for that matter. When you speak like that, it comes off less as a discussion on the merits of a form of transportation (EVs) and more a pre-canned perspective meant to work an existing political narrative. And that's unfortunate. |
You seem excessively triggered by my use of the term "opulent city-dweller." I'm not sure why. None of those words are even remotely pejorative.
I merely use them because they are accurate descriptors: In my opinion, anyone who can afford the luxury of an EV is opulent; EV's are considerably more viable in densely populated regions than they are in sparsely populated regions, i.e., city-dweller. I also did not say all EV owners are opulent city-dwellers; only that the (vast) majority are.
And you still didn't answer my question (but don't feel obligated if you don't want to). |
I did answer your question, and bolded it since you missed it. I'm not "triggered" by you using that. I could give a shit if you thought that of me personally. My annoyance stems from the fact that it's an attack on who you perceive to be the owners, rather than on the actual technology itself. It's sloppy arguing.
| Floating VW wrote: |
| nbvolks wrote: |
| You're simply ignoring production processes ranging from design to implementation and the economies of scale required. . . |
Not at all. You, however, are still using bad analogies to dance around hard facts. ICE and EV are, by and large, designed and manufactured by the exact same processes. Why would they not be? Sure, the tooling might be a bit different, but the tooling is always a bit different. That leaves the materials they are made from as the only real "cost" difference between the two (unless you want to include the amount of government subsidies and corporate greed that gets thrown into the mix). So I'll stand by what I said before: Selling more and more EV's will only make the newer EV's cheaper to manufacture than previous EV's. It will not make them cheaper than ICE vehicles. |
I bolded the important bit there. Those can both be true. The fewer and fewer ICE vehicles you build, then the more and more the per vehicle fixed cost grows for them. As an example, your tooling doesn't just pop out batteries or engines at the flip of a switch. They're dedicated machines, and you need to recoup those costs, and that's reflected in the final sales price. Currently, some manufacturers try to hedge those costs by building platforms intended to run some ICE, BEV, PHEV, or hybrid, so that the shared cost is the chassis itself. But even with that, if your sales margins are slim on one drivetrain or another, your options are to either build that cost partly into the final price of the other drivetrain, or jack the price of the lower volume unit.
At the extreme end, it becomes cost prohibitive to build any one type of drivetrain if there's not the volume of sales to support it.
| Floating VW wrote: |
| nbvolks wrote: |
| Floating VW wrote: |
Yes. I only buy clothes that are not made of cobalt. They chafe too much. |
Deflection |
Lighten up, man. Not everything is a fallacy of logic. Throwing in a little humor is generally considered a useful tactic when arguing with someone who is stuck in a cognitive dissonance loop . . . unless that person doesn't have a sense of humor, apparently. |
I love humor.  And you can have both that, and an acknowledgement of the point that was being made.
| Floating VW wrote: |
That is some interesting data, unfortunately, it's still not very useful, and for the same reason as before. Those numbers are a collection of "averages". You can't design a thing based on "averages" and expect it to work well for the people at the extremes (unless you want to pretend that the people at the extremes don't exist, regardless of what percentage of the population they comprise). That's obtuse, Harrison Bergeron-style thinking. |
So literally, for you, unless it works for 100% of the population, 100% of the time, with no deviation from current, then there's no point in perusing it? Is that what you're saying? Those are actual miles driven by people with cars within those defined regions. you keep saying people in rural areas drive longer distances (netting more miles). I don't even disagree with that, just disagree with the extent you seem to think that is. I provide information supporting BOTH of us, and then that's still not enough, because for you, it doesn't accurately represent Betty Hemsworth of Powder River, WY? Seems to me that's meant more to obfuscate the conversation than anything else.
| Floating VW wrote: |
| nbvolks wrote: |
| And given that we're really only a decade into sort of the "modern" EV, it seems unrealistic to castigate them as a failure. |
And yet, it seems sufficient to declare them an unequivocal success worthy of replacing every other form of transportation on the planet, by mandate, if necessary. |
The world is not black/white like that, why are you stuck swinging from either extreme. I've readily talked about shortcomings and other issues in general, or manufacturer specific, in this very thread. Yet you've made no such concessions, instead being stuck in this language of extremes.
Last edited by nbvolks on Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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nbvolks
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2020
Posts: 344
Location: MA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Floating VW wrote: |
| nbvolks wrote: |
| It's not about gas stations being "inconveniently located", it's about a shift away from that paradigm . . . Do you think there would be the same number of corner gas stations as there are now? |
For sure, there would be fewer in the city. But the ones on the freeway probably wouldn't change as much. |
I wouldn't disagree with that. I think you can find earlier in this thread where I said something about interstates in rural areas.
| Floating VW wrote: |
| And let's talk about that shift in the paradigm: Let's say, hypothetically, that we do go all-electric by 2035. Can you not see any hugely negative effects this sudden shift might have on all the people whose livelihood is directly and/or indirectly dependent on the current paradigm? |
"But what about the blacksmiths?!", said the person decrying the advent of the automobile and the decline of horses for transportation.
| Floating VW wrote: |
| nbvolks wrote: |
| And I've driven through out the NE and Mid-Atlantic, plus throughout Texas, and never had a problem . . . |
I'm willing to bet the reason you don't have a problem has more to do with you changing your own lifestyle, rather than with all the machinery adapting to your needs. |
If that's your takeaway from everything I've freely shared from my experience, then I don't know what else to say. My consistent point has been that it's been easier and less intrusive than our ICE. The thing I changed was that I stopped going to a gas station. I didn't stop commuting, I didn't stop going out, I didn't stop driving up to our place in NH, or adding additional "workarounds" to do those things. They're all unchanged, with the exception of not having to stop at a gas station for gas.
| Floating VW wrote: |
| Me personally, I think it's a step backwards. I don't want a machine that I have to babysit all the time, and remember to plug in everywhere I go, like a damn cell phone. I don't want a machine that I have to program my route based on where the charging stations are, or limit how far I can travel in a day. |
The charging stations are (or will be) where you are! So unless you stop existing, which seems a more philosophical discussion, then you're already at your "charging station". 
| Floating VW wrote: |
| And if the shit ever hits the fan (and I'm quite serious about this), I very much like the idea that, with a few basic plumbing supplies, I can easily convert my car to run on propane, methane or even firewood. I can't do that with an EV. |
You know what's even easier than converting your car to run on propane, methane, or even firewood (all of which you still need to source)? A frickin' backwoods wind turbine. A real prepper can make one out of an old car generator or alternator they find laying around. And you won't need all the additional bits and bobs to keep that car going (oil, spark plus, etc., etc.)
| Floating VW wrote: |
| nbvolks wrote: |
| And again, because of A) the current volume of EVs, and B) how you actually use them vs. ICE refueling, you do not need the same volume of charging stations as you currently do need gas stations. |
Except for when you do. Have you not seen any of the videos of Tesla's lined up all the way around the block, waiting for their turn at the charging station?
Sure, you can say this is the exception to the rule now, but don't expect it to stay that way forever. |
So is your argument here that EV adoption might increase, but that supporting infrastructure will not also increase? That no one is going to try to make some money off of that? |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16849
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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like it or not, ICE will be here for a long, long time yet.
even the EU left an exemption for renewable "carbon neutral" fuel:
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...023-03-21/
bottom line is both will coexist. oil isn't going away anytime soon seeing that every fuckin thing on this planet is made from it or a byproduct from the process.
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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nbvolks
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2020
Posts: 344
Location: MA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
like it or not, ICE will be here for a long, long time yet.
even the EU left an exemption for renewable "carbon neutral" fuel:
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...023-03-21/
bottom line is both will coexist. oil isn't going away anytime soon seeing that every fuckin thing on this planet is made from it or a byproduct from the process. |
I don't think anyone is saying ICE or oil itself, are going away entirely. Or at least I'm not saying that. It goes back to, say it with me,....
mitigation! |
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Bonesberg55
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| I don't know if this has been addressed here, but I was looking at a chart of vehicle weight versus road damage. Assuming an average weight of 4000 lbs for current vehicles & a road damage factor of 1.000, increasing the vehicle weight to 5500 lbs(Tahoe) results in a road damage factor of 3.575. Increasing the vehicle weight to 8600 lbs(Hummer) results in a road damage factor of 21.368. EVs weigh considerably more than a comparable ICE vehicle, roughly 1/3 more. A Rivian pickup weighs 7100 lbs. A Ford Lightning weighs 6200 lbs. A Tesla can weigh over 5300 lbs. Only the small EVs are under 4000 lbs. Roads will deteriorate much faster. |
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nbvolks
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2020
Posts: 344
Location: MA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Bonesberg55 wrote: |
| I don't know if this has been addressed here, but I was looking at a chart of vehicle weight versus road damage. Assuming an average weight of 4000 lbs for current vehicles & a road damage factor of 1.000, increasing the vehicle weight to 5500 lbs(Tahoe) results in a road damage factor of 3.575. Increasing the vehicle weight to 8600 lbs(Hummer) results in a road damage factor of 21.368. EVs weigh considerably more than a comparable ICE vehicle, roughly 1/3 more. A Rivian pickup weighs 7100 lbs. A Ford Lightning weighs 6200 lbs. A Tesla can weigh over 5300 lbs. Only the small EVs are under 4000 lbs. Roads will deteriorate much faster. |
Vehicle weights have been increasing for the past 30 years, as people shifted to bigger and bigger vehicles, and those vehicles are outfitted with heavier safety structures and equipment.
The concern about road wear, while valid, isn't a new one.
https://www.epa.gov/automotive-trends/highlights-automotive-trends-report#Highlight3
What's also not factored in there is the volume of vehicles (fleet count). In 1975, there were ~138M registered vehicles, of all types, on our roads. Today, that same number is over 282M! |
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chrisflstf
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3435
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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Wait until the climate change folks find out that Ev's eat tires like crazy and the tires come from where? Oil !
Thats not going to be liked very much by some. Maybe someone will think of some goofy idea to replace the rubber with, lol |
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Bonesberg55
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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"The concern about road wear, while valid, isn't a new one".
The point is that model for model, EVs are heavier & will damage the roads more. Vehicles across the board weighing more compared to 30 or 40 years ago or there being more vehicles now does not invalidate that fact. I guess its just a minor concern. |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33986
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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OK, 129 pages of discussion... can someone answer the original question in one word or less?
Are electric vehicles bad?
Last edited by KTPhil on Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bonesberg55
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
OK, 129 pages of discussion... can someone answer the original question on one word or less?
Are electric vehicles bad?
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Yes! |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33986
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| Bonesberg55 wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
OK, 129 pages of discussion... can someone answer the original question on one word or less?
Are electric vehicles bad?
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Yes! |
Thank you. |
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Mickey bitsko
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2019
Posts: 511
Location: New Mexifornia
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| OK then.. it's settled.. should have done a poll. To be fair... nah |
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nbvolks
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2020
Posts: 344
Location: MA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
Wait until the climate change folks find out that Ev's eat tires like crazy and the tires come from where? Oil !
Thats not going to be liked very much by some. Maybe someone will think of some goofy idea to replace the rubber with, lol |
Too many memes for you! 
People are aware. The rate of wear is not as much as memes would lead you to believe, nor is it even primarily attributed to the weight.
Most of the major tire manufacturers have developed and been in the process of testing tires that use what they identify as more sustainable materials, and that they would make up 70%+ of the tire. Most tires take ~7 gallons of oil to produce, currently.
But yeah, people are aware that petroleum is used for various rubber and plastics that go into the entire production process.
Everyone say it with me now, it's not about elimination, it's about what?....
Yep, you got it.....mitigation. |
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nbvolks
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2020
Posts: 344
Location: MA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:22 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
OK, 129 pages of discussion... can someone answer the original question in one word or less?
Are electric vehicles bad?
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The correct, and grey, answer is that they are less "bad" than ICE. |
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Bonesberg55
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Electric vehicles are bad |
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| nbvolks wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
OK, 129 pages of discussion... can someone answer the original question in one word or less?
Are electric vehicles bad?
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The correct, and grey, answer is that they are less "bad" than ICE. |
That's more than one word so it can't be correct. |
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