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JSR5150
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:13 am    Post subject: Hot Starting Issue Reply with quote

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Help! Smile I'm having trouble with starting the '72 Ghia when hot. I have to turn the key and floor the accelerator, and it takes 5-7 seconds to fire off.

When I received the car about 6 weeks ago it was down on power, difficult to start when hot, and had flat spots in acceleration. So I adjusted valve clearance, ignition gap, and timing. Power and flat spots improved noticeably, but it still wasn't quite right and continued to be difficult to start when hot. Next I installed a rebuilt German 34PICT-3 Solex from Volkzbitz, which was a huge improvement and eliminated all issues - except for the problem with hot starting.

I've also adjusted the electric choke. Per the instructions, it's closed when the engine is cold and gradually opens as the engine warms up. So I've confirmed that is working properly, and it fires right off when cold. Is there another adjustment to the choke for warm/hot starting? Interested in feedback on hot starting issues.

P.S. - Yes, I know - Relocate that fuel filter! It's going to happen, I just haven't gotten around to it. I've replaced all the fuel lines with new braided hose and I've also used clamps. The plastic temporary filter has hose barbs as well. I'm not sure why all the vendors sell those filters that are flat and have no barbs. Anyway, I have a metal fuel filter I plan to install in the fuel line under the car.
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kingkarmann Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:58 am    Post subject: Re: Hot Starting Issue Reply with quote

The engine starting procedure is different cold/hot.
Pressing and holding the accelerator to the floor is the correct hot start procedure.

From the 72 owners manual
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Bugged Again
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:23 am    Post subject: Re: Hot Starting Issue Reply with quote

Overheating? Run a compression test. My first guess is valves. Does this engine still have the temperature flaps? Iíd check that too. Stuck flaps could be an issue but Iím thinking valves. Easy thing to check.
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carlk3
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 10:35 am    Post subject: Re: Hot Starting Issue Reply with quote

I have a 1600 SP with a 30PICT-1, so it's different, but I have found through experimentation that it starts best when hot if I just barely put my foot on the gas. Like, just barely cracking the throttle open. No depressing it first, like for a cold start. That way, she usually starts in a split second. If I put too much pressure on the pedal, or something, and it doesn't fire off right away, then I push the pedal to the floor and continue to crank for a few seconds.

When I'm doing something like adjusting the fuel level in the carb bowl and have to repeatedly start the engine, I can usually start it without even touching the throttle -- she'll just start at idle.
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Craigbro
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Hot Starting Issue Reply with quote

X2 - I was having issues with this as well. Was trying every conceivable method, driving myself crazy, then...An older VW mechanic from the 60's told me the same thing.
When starting a warm engine, fully depress the accelerator pedal and hold it to start the engine. Magic! works every time Smile

kingkarmann wrote:
The engine starting procedure is different cold/hot.
Pressing and holding the accelerator to the floor is the correct hot start procedure.

From the 72 owners manual
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Trylon Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Hot Starting Issue Reply with quote

Had a hard to start when warm problem ó the fix was a new condenser. I was surprised as the distributor was new from Volksbltz as well.
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carlk3
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Hot Starting Issue Reply with quote

Trylon wrote:
Had a hard to start when warm problem ó the fix was a new condenser. I was surprised as the distributor was new from Volksbltz as well.

Apparently there is a bad batch of condensers going around. I had a new Bosch one in my Ghia last summer on the Hwy 1 Treffen. The engine started missing and backfiring a lot, and I couldn't figure out what was wrong. Mike, of Mike Fn Garage looked at it running for about 30 seconds and said "That looks like a bad condenser to me." In 45 years of owning VWs I've never had one go bad, so I hadn't even considered that. They were always something I just replaced with the points. Luckily, I had kept the old one under the back seat, and that solved the problem.
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JSR5150
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 3:49 am    Post subject: Re: Hot Starting Issue Reply with quote

Craigbro wrote:
X2 - I was having issues with this as well. Was trying every conceivable method, driving myself crazy, then...An older VW mechanic from the 60's told me the same thing.
When starting a warm engine, fully depress the accelerator pedal and hold it to start the engine. Magic! works every time Smile

kingkarmann wrote:
The engine starting procedure is different cold/hot.
Pressing and holding the accelerator to the floor is the correct hot start procedure.

From the 72 owners manual
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Craigbro & kingkarmann - I guess I was thinking this was still an issue because it takes so long to start when following the warm start instructions. And when it finally does, you have to feather the throttle to keep it running at first, and the smell of fuel is strong.

Trylon - I've heard that there was a batch of bad condensers as well. I've ordered the Pertronix EI kit for this car, so that potential issue will go away.
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Era Vulgaris
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 5:40 am    Post subject: Re: Hot Starting Issue Reply with quote

Have you tried not pressing the gas pedal at all during a hot start? When you press the gas pedal down, you're shooting fuel down the carb throat, which you don't really need when the engine is hot, and might be contributing to the rich fuel smell you mentioned.
Both the 67 and 74 I used to own never needed any gas pedal input on a hot start. Just turn the key and they would fire almost immediately.
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98 Porsche Boxster, silver, 2.5L -- 67 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1500sp -- 98 BMW Z3, Atlanta Blue Metallic, 2.8L I6 -- 75 Porsche 914, Laguna Blue, 2270cc -- 72 Porsche 914, Signal Orange, 1.7 FI -- 74 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1600dp -- 74 Triumph TR6 with O.D., sapphire blue
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JSR5150
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:05 am    Post subject: Re: Hot Starting Issue Reply with quote

Era Vulgaris wrote:
Have you tried not pressing the gas pedal at all during a hot start? When you press the gas pedal down, you're shooting fuel down the carb throat, which you don't really need when the engine is hot, and might be contributing to the rich fuel smell you mentioned.
Both the 67 and 74 I used to own never needed any gas pedal input on a hot start. Just turn the key and they would fire almost immediately.


Era Vulgaris Yes, I did try that, because of the fuel smell. It actually takes longer to start that way than it does flooring it.
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: Hot Starting Issue Reply with quote

Trylon wrote:
the distributor was new from Volksbltz as well.

Tim doesn't sell distributors, do you mean Bill @ Sparkwerks?

And if so, condensers are lately hit and miss. I've seen brand new ones fail after a few hundred miles. But it's way less that 1%.
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Era Vulgaris
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:58 am    Post subject: Re: Hot Starting Issue Reply with quote

Have you tested your fuel pressure? Those cheap aftermarket pumps that you have are usually putting out several psi more than you need, and the procedure for adjustment is to stack gaskets under them to lower the pressure until it's correct. If the pressure is too high, it'll push fuel past the needle valve and flood the engine. Might be why you have the fuel smell?
If you haven't done this, you don't actually need a fuel pressure gauge if you don't have one. All you have to do is after a drive when the engine is hot, turn the car off, pull the intake off the carb and look down the throat of the carb. If the fuel pressure is too high, you'll see fuel dripping down the carb throat. Stack gaskets under the fuel pump until the dripping stops when the engine is hot.
Without a gauge it's difficult to diagnose high fuel pressure while driving, because throttle operation will relieve the pressure. But in the minute or two after you shut the car off, that built up pressure has nowhere to go, except to squeeze past the needle valve and down the carb. It'll flood your engine while it's sitting and make hot starts difficult. Once the pressure is relieved to the point where the needle valve can hold it back, the dripping stops. In the time it takes for the car to cool completely that excess fuel has evaporated, which is why your cold starts are easy.

The other easier but more expensive remedy is to buy a rebuilt Pierburg pump, which was OEM for VW, from Sparxwerks and have the correct 3 psi out of the box.
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66 Karmann Ghia, L390 Gulf Blue, under construction, here: www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=760505&highlight=
99 Mazda MX-5 10AE, Sapphire Blue Mica, 6 speed, LSD

Previously owned:
98 Porsche Boxster, silver, 2.5L -- 67 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1500sp -- 98 BMW Z3, Atlanta Blue Metallic, 2.8L I6 -- 75 Porsche 914, Laguna Blue, 2270cc -- 72 Porsche 914, Signal Orange, 1.7 FI -- 74 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1600dp -- 74 Triumph TR6 with O.D., sapphire blue
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JSR5150
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:52 am    Post subject: Re: Hot Starting Issue Reply with quote

Era Vulgaris wrote:
Have you tested your fuel pressure? Those cheap aftermarket pumps that you have are usually putting out several psi more than you need, and the procedure for adjustment is to stack gaskets under them to lower the pressure until it's correct. If the pressure is too high, it'll push fuel past the needle valve and flood the engine. Might be why you have the fuel smell?
If you haven't done this, you don't actually need a fuel pressure gauge if you don't have one. All you have to do is after a drive when the engine is hot, turn the car off, pull the intake off the carb and look down the throat of the carb. If the fuel pressure is too high, you'll see fuel dripping down the carb throat. Stack gaskets under the fuel pump until the dripping stops when the engine is hot.
Without a gauge it's difficult to diagnose high fuel pressure while driving, because throttle operation will relieve the pressure. But in the minute or two after you shut the car off, that built up pressure has nowhere to go, except to squeeze past the needle valve and down the carb. It'll flood your engine while it's sitting and make hot starts difficult. Once the pressure is relieved to the point where the needle valve can hold it back, the dripping stops. In the time it takes for the car to cool completely that excess fuel has evaporated, which is why your cold starts are easy.

The other easier but more expensive remedy is to buy a rebuilt Pierburg pump, which was OEM for VW, from Sparxwerks and have the correct 3 psi out of the box.


Era Vulgaris Good info there, thanks. I'll look into the fuel pressure and see what I've got.
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JSR5150
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 1:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Hot Starting Issue Reply with quote

I may have found the solution to the hot starting problem, and itís not what I wouldíve thought. I ordered a new Bosch distributor cap and rotor, which arrived yesterday. The cap that was on the car was kind of generic, and had aluminum points, which Iím not a fan of. So I decided to replace them. Anyway, I replaced those this morning and it apparently has completely eliminated the hot starting issue. Iím still planning to check the fuel pressure, just to be sure. But it appears that a new, quality cap and rotor have eliminated the problem.

Doesn't make sense that this would correct the issue, but I'll roll with it.


Last edited by JSR5150 on Mon Apr 03, 2023 5:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Trylon Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Hot Starting Issue Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
Trylon wrote:
the distributor was new from Volksbltz as well.

Tim doesn't sell distributors, do you mean Bill @ Sparkwerks?

And if so, condensers are lately hit and miss. I've seen brand new ones fail after a few hundred miles. But it's way less that 1%.


Haha! Actually, now I donít remember where our distributor came from. Itís in my thread somewhere Ö maybe if I asked ChatGPT it could help me find it.
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1979 Volkswagen Rabbit
1973 Volkswagen Bus
1970 MGB-GT
1962 Oldsmobile Jetfire

More tomfoolery on
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