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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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 Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:03 am Post subject: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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Hello everyone,
In a 1900 lb-ish '59 bug (including my 211 lbs sitting in it haha), and a 10.5:1 2387 with Street Fighter heads and Geers 51.5 IDAs on CB ported and welded manifolds, assuming a 1 3/4 exhaust, an FK-89 cam and 1.4 rockers, what estimated horsepower and 1/8th and 1/4 mile times would the car be capable of?
Also, what is everyone's opinion of Raceware head studs?
Thanks if you're able to entertain my questions.
Ted |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15309
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:12 am Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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You need to include transaxle gearing and tire size for ET's. There can be a difference in 1/8 times for a trans geared exclusively for the 1/8 and the 1/8 times with a trans geared for the 1/4. Do you need to compromise gearing to drive on the street.
Wild ass guess 210-230 HP and 11.90's 1/4 mile.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK |
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txoval
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2004
Posts: 3552
Location: The Woodlands, TX
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:26 am Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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Raceware head studs are the top of the line…not sure what else to say. Much better than the POS Chinese Chromoly options
Berg head studs would be my next choice |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:28 am Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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| vwracerdave wrote: |
You need to include transaxle gearing and tire size for ET's. There can be a difference in 1/8 times for a trans geared exclusively for the 1/8 and the 1/8 times with a trans geared for the 1/4. Do you need to compromise gearing to drive on the street.
Wild ass guess 210-230 HP and 11.90's 1/4 mile. |
Absolutely right Dave. I forgot to mention that very important detail!
I don't have any transaxle selected yet, but can just add that whatever I do end up with will be optimized for the engine output and most likely the 1/8th since there are no 1/4 tracks in my neck of the woods.
Those numbers you mentioned sound really good! That is what I was hoping to hear. This engine would be fed VP mixed with 93 and is highly unlikely to be streetable, which I don't mind.
Ted |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:44 am Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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| txoval wrote: |
Raceware head studs are the top of the line…not sure what else to say. Much better than the POS Chinese Chromoly options
Berg head studs would be my next choice |
Thanks txoval, I snagged a set of their 10mm studs, and will be threading these into my TF-1 case which I'm fixing to mount on my stand. I had to squint real hard at the case holes because they look at first glance like they are 8mm. According to Todd Francis the case is so strong it doesn't need case savers and so the stud holes look tiny.
Ted |
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rrcade
Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2010
Posts: 735
Location: WI 1962 Bug 2276
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:56 am Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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220-230 HP
1/4 probably low 11s to high 10s
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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| rrcade wrote: |
220-230 HP
1/4 probably low 11s to high 10s |
Whoa that is zipping along!!! I would LOVE to clock high tens/low elevens in my vdub. If these times are possible with the combo I mentioned and not something more exotic or $$$ Scat/Pauter/Autocraft I need to build it sooner rather than later.
Ted |
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nsracing
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9481
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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If this is an 8-dowell system w/ gland nut, enjoy yourself at the burnout box.
Report back here -after? |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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Nsracing are you thinking a dowel pin crank won't make it past the burnout box? 
Ted |
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nsracing
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9481
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 8:35 pm Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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YOu are more than welcome to try it, dude. Don't let me stop you. 
Everybody gotta do their own thing. YOu will find your own comfort zone. I am sure many can chime in and give you their honest experiences w/ 8-dowell systems.
Just saying - drag racing is rough. |
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67rustavenger 
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9772
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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| fl59bug wrote: |
Nsracing are you thinking a dowel pin crank won't make it past the burnout box?
Ted |
Can you even build a TF-1 case using an 8 dowel crank and FW?
I thought that they required a flanged crank.
When I tore down my 2180 after a summer of weekend drag racing, infrequently.
I found that the dowel pins had wallowed out the crank a bit.
I avoid the burnout box, liken the plague!
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3466
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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Looking in your state of North Carolina, I see 1/4 mile tracks in Concord, Rockingham, Kinston, Fayetteville, and Jacksonville. Any of those within a few hours of you? Only running 1/8 mile is a real party pooper.
on that engine, your only running 10.5 compression with that fk89? Run your exact combo through the dynamic compression calculator http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php
I had to make a few educated guesses on your combo, and im getting only 160psi cranking pressure. leaving alot of power on the table. You wont be getting 200+ hp with that low of compression and that cam. Not only that, if you run race gas mixed with some 93 pump gas, its gonna have less power then if you ran just crappy 89 octane pump gas lol. If your gonna be running 93 octane mixed with race gas, I would get your dynamic cranking pressure to 195 psi. Just spitballing, this would be 12:1 static compression or more. |
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RickS
Samba Member
Joined: May 05, 2005
Posts: 430
Location: Speonk, NY
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:05 am Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| fl59bug wrote: |
Nsracing are you thinking a dowel pin crank won't make it past the burnout box?
Ted |
Can you even build a TF-1 case using an 8 dowel crank and FW?
I thought that they required a flanged crank.
When I tore down my 2180 after a summer of weekend drag racing, infrequently.
I found that the dowel pins had wallowed out the crank a bit.
I avoid the burnout box, liken the plague! |
Absolutely can build with an 8 dowel crank. If you want to run a flange crank, Todd will machine the case for that, no charge. |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 7:04 am Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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Just wedgemate the darn thing 
_________________
'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:52 am Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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| jpaull wrote: |
Looking in your state of North Carolina, I see 1/4 mile tracks in Concord, Rockingham, Kinston, Fayetteville, and Jacksonville. Any of those within a few hours of you? Only running 1/8 mile is a real party pooper.
on that engine, your only running 10.5 compression with that fk89? Run your exact combo through the dynamic compression calculator http://www.wallaceracing.com/dynamic-cr.php
I had to make a few educated guesses on your combo, and im getting only 160psi cranking pressure. leaving alot of power on the table. You wont be getting 200+ hp with that low of compression and that cam. Not only that, if you run race gas mixed with some 93 pump gas, its gonna have less power then if you ran just crappy 89 octane pump gas lol. If your gonna be running 93 octane mixed with race gas, I would get your dynamic cranking pressure to 195 psi. Just spitballing, this would be 12:1 static compression or more. |
Thanks jpaull, I for some reason was thinking only of Farmington, which is 1/8. You are spot on about those other 1/4 mile tracks. Thanks for clearing my short memory! 
I should get my facts together more before posting - you're also right about mixing 93 with VP. I won't do that after all.
I already have Street Fighters with 53cc chambers, and I went with 10.5:1 because I was following the CB "cookbook" 2387 until I get my feet wetter with building HiPo engines.
It sounds too like I may have some rework needed on my case, since as NSRacing mentioned dowel pin cranks don't like burnouts lol.
Right now the only mods to the case are that it has a type 4 center main. I had it spec'ed and built before I really became aware of the flanged crank and its benefits. I would rather take time now and redo anything I'm not happy with than to have it break and fix it then, which tends to be more $$$.
Thank you for the excellent feedback.
Ted |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:53 am Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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| RickS wrote: |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| fl59bug wrote: |
Nsracing are you thinking a dowel pin crank won't make it past the burnout box?
Ted |
Can you even build a TF-1 case using an 8 dowel crank and FW?
I thought that they required a flanged crank.
When I tore down my 2180 after a summer of weekend drag racing, infrequently.
I found that the dowel pins had wallowed out the crank a bit.
I avoid the burnout box, liken the plague! |
Absolutely can build with an 8 dowel crank. If you want to run a flange crank, Todd will machine the case for that, no charge. |
I didn't know he would do it no charge. I'll get in touch with him asap.
Ted |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:56 am Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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| madmike wrote: |
| Just wedgemate the darn thing |
Thank you Mike. That is I guess an option. I'm looking at Scat billet cranks anyway since I need one with a T4 center journal. I'll ask them about the wedgemating process just so I have all the facts.
I'm leaning towards the flanged crank though, honestly.
Ted |
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4858
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:07 am Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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11.20s in a full weight ghia with 7" slicks, standard 8 dowel and cb gland nut torqued to 500 pounds. Going on season 4.
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RickS
Samba Member
Joined: May 05, 2005
Posts: 430
Location: Speonk, NY
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:11 am Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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| fl59bug wrote: |
| RickS wrote: |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| fl59bug wrote: |
Nsracing are you thinking a dowel pin crank won't make it past the burnout box?
Ted |
Can you even build a TF-1 case using an 8 dowel crank and FW?
I thought that they required a flanged crank.
When I tore down my 2180 after a summer of weekend drag racing, infrequently.
I found that the dowel pins had wallowed out the crank a bit.
I avoid the burnout box, liken the plague! |
Absolutely can build with an 8 dowel crank. If you want to run a flange crank, Todd will machine the case for that, no charge. |
I didn't know he would do it no charge. I'll get in touch with him asap.
Ted |
I don’t know if he will do it no charge on a previously sold crankcase, but it is a no charge option on a new order. |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:28 am Post subject: Re: 2387 Horsepower, ET estimates and build question |
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| mcmscott wrote: |
| 11.20s in a full weight ghia with 7" slicks, standard 8 dowel and cb gland nut torqued to 500 pounds. Going on season 4. |
Thanks this is good news for the dowel crank setup.
Ted |
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