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Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Sweden
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 Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:09 am Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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| Hawker wrote: |
Hello,
Both my 411LE four door saloon/sedan cars had their build sheets taped to the rear seat springs, and they remain there.
BR,
Rob |
Intresting!
Any photos of the sheets you can share?
/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver 
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold 
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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Pepperbilly
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2017
Posts: 977
Location: Seattle, Wa
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:38 am Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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| Hawker wrote: |
Hello,
Both my 411LE four door saloon/sedan cars had their build sheets taped to the rear seat springs, and they remain there.
BR,
Rob |
Wow, that is good! Would love to see some photos of these rare documents and painted engine stampings if you have them. Trying to make sense of all the numbers. Where were your 411s made and delivered to originally?
Bill |
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Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 10:18 am Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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| Pepperbilly wrote: |
Wow, that is good! Would love to see some photos of these rare documents and painted engine stampings if you have them. Trying to make sense of all the numbers. ....
Bill |
Good idea Bill - those mystery numbers have to be decoded, will be intresting to see how far you can get!
Wonder if there was one sheet taped on each side of the car, would be much more practical at the line than running around the car for info.
/Lars D
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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wonkipop
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021
Posts: 30
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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if you can find enough of those 411/412 engine tin stencil stamp numbers the patterns should start to look a bit like this.
914 numbers collected to date and confirmed against cars known to be original.
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wonkipop
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021
Posts: 30
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2023 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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this is a 411/412 from my files when doing research for 914 engines.
came up on a european e-bay search as a 914 engine for sale in france.
but its not a 914 engine. the tin is for a 411/412 - still has the fan boot on it too for install into a 411/412.
this is probably a european spec tin code number maybe different from USA code numbers. although it could be an engine that someone in europe sourced from the states. you can never can tell given its half a century on in time now.
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Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:16 am Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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| wonkipop wrote: |
if you can find enough of those 411/412 engine tin stencil stamp numbers the patterns should start to look a bit like this.
914 numbers collected to date and confirmed against cars known to be original.
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Impressive list, thank you for sharing wonkipop!
I have found the following numbers on cars I have been owning, pretty sure they all are original engines, all are euro spec and D-jet:
522 1972 411LE Variant, W-engine
545 1973 412LE 4-door, W-engine
606 1972 914 1,7, W-engine
620 1973 914 2,0, GB-engine
/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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wonkipop
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021
Posts: 30
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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| Lars S wrote: |
| wonkipop wrote: |
if you can find enough of those 411/412 engine tin stencil stamp numbers the patterns should start to look a bit like this.
914 numbers collected to date and confirmed against cars known to be original.
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Impressive list, thank you for sharing wonkipop!
I have found the following numbers on cars I have been owning, pretty sure they all are original engines, all are euro spec and D-jet:
522 1972 411LE Variant, W-engine
545 1973 412LE 4-door, W-engine
606 1972 914 1,7, W-engine
620 1973 914 2,0, GB-engine
/Lars S |
the 606 number on your 72 is real interesting.
out of range on all the numbers we have, but the numbers we have are for USA market cars.
you can see where 606 comes up in the 74s on the list i posted.
we only got one number for the euro market cars which is the one from the 74 1.8 in the porsche museum. thats the 1.8 without EFI that reverted to using twin carbs.
its very interesting that 606. don't know what to make of it.
but very interesting data. will file away.
the euro 73/74 2.0 number is known. and checks out on data others with 914s had compiled years ago. 620. i have also sighted that number on a 1973 2.0 here in australia that was one of the crayfords engineering rhd conversion cars.
it was originally european spec delivered new to the UK for conversion.
these numbers on the 74 1.8s cover some very small differences in the engines. very small differences.
all they did to certify and comply the 1.8s for california was disconnect the hose from the vac advance side of the double can on the distributor and plug the port it connected to on the throttle body (which was above the throttle plate).
the 49 states car had the hose connected. no vac ignition advance at cruise for the californian cars (in order to lower NOX). ran hotter at cruise.
that was all they did. and a different emission sticker in the engine bay.
the difference was so small it had passed under the noses of most 914 owners and enthusiasts for years. it was always assumed the 1.8 was a USA wide compliant engine. it wasn't. in some ways that double vac can distributor was almost the primary emission device. of course the fuel mixture routine in the ECU and the lower compression ratio for unleaded fuel were the big things for USA generally, but in 74 with the L jets the difference between CARB requirements and EPA requirements was handled entirely by activating that vac hose or deactivating it.
the difference became more pronounced in 1975.
i am not sure the 412 1.8 engines made use of a double vac can on the distributor. the few photos i have seen would seem to show that 412 only had a single vac can. advance vac only? haven't ever seen one in the flesh to know. |
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Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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| wonkipop wrote: |
606 number on your 72 is real interesting.
out of range on all the numbers we have, but the numbers we have are for USA market cars.
you can see where 606 comes up in the 74s on the list i posted.
we only got one number for the euro market cars which is the one from the 74 1.8 in the porsche museum. thats the 1.8 without EFI that reverted to using twin carbs.
its very interesting that 606. don't know what to make of it.
but very interesting data. will file away.
......
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I had to check old photos from when I bought the car 15 years ago and see if the "606" really was there at that point (I have later transferred the 606 after painting the tin).
Yes, it was there!
Also its a W-engine with the engine no stamped on top of the block at the flywheel end (not at the fill tower) as it should for a 914 1.7 engine.
Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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wonkipop
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2021
Posts: 30
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2023 5:35 am Post subject: Re: 412 - L JET = the first |
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@Lars S
thanks for photo.
i'll add to our data for 914s. good stuff.
i can see how it could have been used thinking about it..
they were using 610 for the USA 1972/73 EA 1.7 engine.
the EB 1.7 for california did not come along until 73 using 613.
the WO persisted in europe right through 72/73 (?) and then stopped for 74 when they brought in the AN 1.8 for europe. we know ii is a 608 on the AN.
so 606 was free to use for the 74 cars for one of the engines as the W was dropped. its never been clear to me exactly when the WO was dropped and there seems to be slightly conflicting info but i assume it continued to be used in europe and the EA (and later EB) was used in the USA.
yes the 1.8s also had the engine number stamped in roughly the same area as the 1.7s down near the flywheel. i can also see from the tin that the coil is in the 1.7 location not the 1.8 location.
as an aside one of the rarest of the 914s built in terms of production numbers was the european spec 1975 1.8. by then the engine was only in the 914 and no other VWs. you can go off the engine numbers. there were 101 built. not many would have survived?  |
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