Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Time to drop my engine again....
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
sb001
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10399
Location: NW Arkansas
sb001 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2023 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

JonRich55 wrote:
Vacuum leaks, the bane of VWs and a double dose of it with the AS!! Pinhole leaks on a 4Spd arent noticed, they cause havoc on the AS, especially if they are at a point that expansion seals them when hot. I basically replaced EVERYTHING I could and switched to fiber manifold gaskets (mine is the DP).

I dont think the 30-3 was matched to a DVDA in a stock setup? I have only seen the DVDA set with the 34-3/4 and those that were had the larger hole in the butterfly specifically for emissions. I would switch yours back to an SVDA and time it with the vacuum plugged at 5 / 7.5 BTDC at about 800rpm. That carb wasnt meant to be run in a ATDC setup as far as I know.

I am interested to hear what you find, as the TCs dont often have issues. Do you have a shop near you that can test it once out the car?

Since you arent smelling gear oil, I wonder if you have a mix of oil/ATF, it could be a delay out of the TC mixing with oil?


The overwhelming evidence points to the AD and AE autostick distributors were DVDA from the factory, although there is a bit of debate. They were both mated to the autostick modified 30 PICT-3 (credit to glutamodo (Andy) for the following chart):

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I posted about this very subject before, in this thread (starts on page 3):

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...p;start=60

On page 4 of that thread, Mr Lang posted specs for all the autostick distributors straight from his VW workshop manuals, which indicate that the AD and AE autostick distributors, while using different vacuum canisters, were indeed both DVDA distributors:

mr. lang wrote:
113 905 205 P and
113 905 205 AA = SVDA, 0° TDC, hose off, mech. start 1000-1200rpm -> end 30-33° at 3800rpm, vac. start 50-100mmHg -> end 9-12° at 230mmHg
113 905 205 AB = SVDA, 7.5° BTDC, hose off, mech. start 1000-1250rpm -> end 21-26° at 3900rpm, vac. start 40-110mmHg -> end 7-13° at 250mmHg
113 905 205 AC = SVDA, 7.5° BTDC, hose off, mech. start 1000-1250rpm -> end 24-29° at 3900rpm, vac. start 40-110mmHg -> end 8-13° at 250mmHg
113 905 205 AL = SVDA, 7.5° BTDC, hose off, mech. start 1050-1250rpm -> end 22-25° at 3800rpm, vac. start 60-100mmHg -> end 8-12° at 200mmHg
113 905 205 AD and
113 905 205 AE = DVDA, 0° TDC (no mistake), hose on, mech start 1050-1200rpm -> end 25-28° at 3900rpm, adv. start 70-120mmHg -> end 8-12° at 240mmHg, ret. start 60-100mmHg -> end 6-8° at 170mmHg


Where a bit of confusion has come into play for me, and why I posted about it in that thread above, is that there was a small discrepancy between what the Bosch tune-up chart and the Old Volks Home distributor page showed. They both list the correct matching vacuum canister as 07138, but the Bosch chart lists the canister as a DVDA with having both vacuum advance and retard specs:

Bosch tuneup chart:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Whereas the Old Volks Home page only lists a vacuum advance spec, and only mentions disconnecting and plugging a single hose when setting timing.

Old Volks Home page:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


But I am running the 07138 canister on my distributor and it does indeed have TWO ports, one for advance and one for retard. So my summation is that the Bosch Tuneup Chart is correct, and the Old Volks Home page is not.

Also the 30 PICT-3 I am running is one I picked up from the nearby VW salvage yard some years back, it has both vacuum advance and retard ports as well as the 3rd autostick control valve vacuum port- I see no reason why anyone would have added that retard port later. So most of the evidence points to the 30 PICT-3 that was used on the 1970 SP autostick as being mated to a DVDA distributor from the factory.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
JonRich55
Samba Member


Joined: April 06, 2018
Posts: 382
Location: Leesburg, VA USA
JonRich55 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2023 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

That is a LOT of information Smile Appreciate you putting this all in one place!

All the 30-3 carbs I have seen were only fitted for advance and had no retard port, and I also didnt think emission related carbs / Distributers were used in 1970.

I have the Car of the century books and will see what that says the 1970 setup was. If I find even more changes, I will post that just to add to the wealth of info.

EDIT - shows 113905205AD or AE distributer used on the Auto and lists the timing spec as TDC. All the Dual vacuum cans versions I have seen always get timed at 5deg ATDC with the retard line attached. I have never seen any manual or book that shows a 1970 with a Dual unit timed in ATDC.
Also, the book mentions that 1970 only Auto version of the 30-3 TAG# 113129029E and says that the added AS vacuum port was installed.

I cant find anything in the 1970 specs that would suggest the retard port.

I also have all the original Microphiche...(For Type 1/2/3/181 and 411/412) and I hope to one day go through it all, TONS of info only the dealers had.

Always fun when there are so many places this information exists. I know the Car of the Century was compiled from a similar Microfiche setup to what I have...I just cant speak to if mine might have more (or certain details weren't in the book).


Last edited by JonRich55 on Sun May 21, 2023 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sb001
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10399
Location: NW Arkansas
sb001 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2023 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

JonRich55 wrote:
That is a LOT of information Smile Appreciate you putting this all in one place!

All the 30-3 carbs I have seen were only fitted for advance and had no retard port, and I also didnt think emission related carbs / Distributers were used in 1970.

I have the Car of the century books and will see what that says the 1970 setup was. If I find even more changes, I will post that just to add to the wealth of info.

I also have all the original Microphiche...(For Type 1/2/3/181 and 411/412) and I hope to one day go through it all, TONS of info only the dealers had.


WOW now THAT would be of great value to everyone on this site!!
The 30 PICT-3 carbs you have seen with only the vacuum advance port would most likely have been for the 4- speed manuals which would have still been an SVA setup (single vacuum advance only- no mechanical advance-- last year of that before VW switched the 4-speeds to DVDA.) So only one vacuum advance line, and I believe different jetting and different size hole in the throttle plate. There is a 227-1 modification number on the autostick 30 PICT-3 which I believe represents different jetting, different throttle plate hole, different plumbing and additional ports for the retard line and autostick control valve vacuum port.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
JonRich55
Samba Member


Joined: April 06, 2018
Posts: 382
Location: Leesburg, VA USA
JonRich55 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2023 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

SB - if you send me an email address I can set a photo of the 3 pages from the Car of the Century that shows the '70 Carb info.

What I find interesting is that both the manual and the Auto are timed at TDC. Given the manual was an SVA with advance only, I would have expected the Auto to be timed at 5 ATDC if it were using a DVDA vacuum can.

Personally, I think the original 30-3 for the Auto was the exact same as the 4spd, with the addition of the one added port for the AS control valve.

Having said that, it is conceivable that VW updated the 30-3 for either CA or other state emissions after 1970 so it could potentially be retrofitted to pass new laws without requiring the heads and manifold to be removed to accept the more emission designed 34-3.

just my thoughts after reading the CotC book again for the 70/71 years.

Wish my fiche viewer was burried under my stairs....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sb001
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10399
Location: NW Arkansas
sb001 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2023 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

OK just sent you a PM thanks

There is just too much evidence pointing to the contrary IMO to make me think the autostick modified AE was not originally a DVDA-- I have seen too many 30 PICT-3s with both of the rear facing ports. It's what Mr. Lang's VW factory workshop manuals say, and it's what has been posted by Andy on his tuneup chart. It's possible I suppose that there was some variation but I don't remember ever seeing a 30 PICT-3 with just the advance port and the autostick port but not the retard port.
Having said all that, it would certainly help explain why my car wants to stall at idle in gear. And yes the 0 TDC timing seems a bit weird (although EVERYTHING I've seen says that.) Even Mr. Lang added "no mistake" on his post about that Very Happy
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sb001
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10399
Location: NW Arkansas
sb001 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2023 7:48 am    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

Update: dropped the engine last night. Found my drivers side lower engine bolt completely loose, but other than that no real surprises to speak of, except that no ATF fluid came out of the bell housing- further sign that my issues may be TC related.
Also got a staunch reminder of how long it's been since I last pulled the engine, since I completely forgot to disconnect the heater box cables and the fuel line that goes through the front tin before dropping the engine. Embarassed

Pics to come later tonite
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Marcdeb
Samba Member


Joined: May 22, 2019
Posts: 3009
Location: Vermont
Marcdeb is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2023 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

Did the TC stay put? When I took my engine out, the TC wanted to stay with the engine (and yes I had the TC bolts out), so as soon as I pulled the engine back I had quite a mess. But if the TC stays put, I would think no ATF is normal.
_________________
Marc
68 Karmann Ghia Cabrio Autostick
71 Karmann Ghia Cabrio

Previously Owned:
2011 VW EOS Hard Top Conv
2008 Saab 9-3 2.0T Conv
2003 Saab 9-3 SE Conv
2001 Saab 9-3 Conv
1998 BMW 3 Series Conv
1997 Saab 900 Conv
1997 Mazda Miata

68 Ghia Vert Survivor with 22,350 miles: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=768107&highlight=
71 Ghia Vert Restoration: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=726710&postorder=asc
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sb001
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10399
Location: NW Arkansas
sb001 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2023 10:02 am    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

Marcdeb wrote:
Did the TC stay put? When I took my engine out, the TC wanted to stay with the engine (and yes I had the TC bolts out), so as soon as I pulled the engine back I had quite a mess. But if the TC stays put, I would think no ATF is normal.


Honestly it had been so long since I pulled the engine that I couldn't remember if the ATF fluid mess happened when the engine or the TC was pulled. The TC stayed put so I'll pull it this evening and see what happens (with a bucket underneath)

I will say the bell housing, front and right side of the transmission are all coated with something, thought it was maybe grease from the axle but it might be dried ATF.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sb001
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10399
Location: NW Arkansas
sb001 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2023 5:28 am    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

Some pics---

nothing jumps out at me aside from the goop around the bell housing, tranny mounts etc-- loose ATF hose connection maybe?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Sorry didn't get pictures of the engine but everything looks OK there too.

One other thing I wanted to check with the engine out is why I have gaps between the engine and seal on the left and back sides of the engine bay, as if the engine is sitting crooked when bolted up to the transmission. I thought maybe one of my tranny mounts was bad or even maybe the frame horn was a little bent, but don't see any evidence of either.

I also discovered the spare torque converter I had was WAAAYY rusted out, and there was some ATF fluid left inside it that now looks like reddish-orange goop. So I guess I won't be testing my bad TC theory with that one... Sad
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tom K.
Samba Member


Joined: March 10, 2005
Posts: 1600
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Tom K. is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2023 6:08 am    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

Looks good. Plenty of TC's on Samba I'm guessing. Or a nearby parts yard. Take off that TC and replace the seal behind it. Then add the new TC and bolt it up. (Don't keep the engine out too long). Maybe get new gaskets for the manifold-to-head point and new seals for the other side of the manifold to minimize the vaccine leaks johnrich discussed.
_________________
'91 Vanagon Westfalia
'70 Beetle Convertible
'71 Super Beetle Semi-Automatic: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=714131&highlight=
'65 Ghia: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=762478&highlight=
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tom K.
Samba Member


Joined: March 10, 2005
Posts: 1600
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Tom K. is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2023 6:10 am    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

BTW rust on the outside of a TC is no big deal.
_________________
'91 Vanagon Westfalia
'70 Beetle Convertible
'71 Super Beetle Semi-Automatic: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=714131&highlight=
'65 Ghia: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=762478&highlight=
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sb001
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10399
Location: NW Arkansas
sb001 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2023 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

Tom K. wrote:
Looks good. Plenty of TC's on Samba I'm guessing. Or a nearby parts yard. Take off that TC and replace the seal behind it. Then add the new TC and bolt it up. (Don't keep the engine out too long). Maybe get new gaskets for the manifold-to-head point and new seals for the other side of the manifold to minimize the vaccine leaks johnrich discussed.


"Vaccine" leaks? Razz Maybe that's what I need- put me out of my misery! Razz

Plan on doing a bit of an engine refresh while it's out with all new seals, and I want to check the cylinder head bolt torque.
Still want to find out why the engine sits a bit crooked. May have to loosen up the transmission mounts and see if I can adjust the transmission position any.
Wish I had the tools tp just pull the tranny and refresh it (well I actually do, but don't know if I want to go through all that hassle.) Would like to get new axle seals, and probably drain the gear oil and replace with fresh & a fresh gasket.

I HATE those stupid rearward 10mm nuts holding the intake manifold to the head- no way to get a socket on them because of the curvature of the manifold body, and no way to get a wrench flat on them because of the proximity of the edges of that diamond shaped collar. End up having to twist and angle wrench those, I wouldn't be surprised to find they are loose. I already have an engine seal/ gasket set ready to go. But my huge concern is that NONE of this will solve the problem I am having. Nothing looks obviously wrong.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sb001
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10399
Location: NW Arkansas
sb001 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2023 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

Tom K. wrote:
BTW rust on the outside of a TC is no big deal.


Rust on the outside, dust on the inside-- and dirt, and rock pebbles... Very Happy
I have cleaned it out as best I could but it probably needs a professional redo.
Now where is my autostick manual page that shows how to syphon that old ATF fluid out of there...?
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sb001
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10399
Location: NW Arkansas
sb001 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

I have contacted a samba seller regarding purchasing another spare torque converter. He is supposed to be checking on shipping cost and get back to me.
Meanwhile this is what I have on my check list while the engine is out:

1. Check passenger side cylinder head for #2 spark plug hole (the spark plug blew out of this hole a couple years back and I timeserted it as best I could with the engine still in the car but I want to double check the quality of the repair)

2. Replace intake manifold gaskets and see if I can find the magical tool that will allow me easy access to the rearward nuts under the curved part of the intake to make sure they are tightened to spec

3. Replace torque converter seal (& probably TC itself if the sale for the one in the classifieds goes through)

4. Drain and replace gear oil (MUCH easier to gain access to the fill hole with the engine out) and replace pan gasket

5. Check and adjust clutch servo rod (could be contributing to my acceleration issues if the clutch is indeed slipping at times)

6. Replace drivers side exhaust pipe gasket- this has been missing for awhile, no idea what happened to it but I'm sure there was an exhaust leak there.

General cleaning up of engine and especially the gunk around the bell housing area (not sure if that is leaked ATF or what, seems like quite a bit of leakage for the system to never show low on the dipstick.)

I might also look into replacing the rear main seal, but that means wrenching the gland nut off and then back on to 282 ft/ lbs. Sad
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sb001
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10399
Location: NW Arkansas
sb001 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

Oh yeah also do some investigating and see if I can figure out why the engine sits a bit cockeyed.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jwp67
Samba Member


Joined: February 12, 2012
Posts: 652

jwp67 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 2:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


10mm 1/4 inch swivel socket is your magic tool for the rearward manifold nuts. I use an extension with it or even a screwdriver bit would work.
_________________
21 million of these cars were built,and everyone of them were sold...kinda astounding given how unreliable they are.---johhnypan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sb001
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10399
Location: NW Arkansas
sb001 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

I have one of those too but the outside of it is too thick to fit between the nut and the edge of the collar.
I need one that's like one mm thick around the edge.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tom K.
Samba Member


Joined: March 10, 2005
Posts: 1600
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Tom K. is offline 

PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

I used these nuts and then an ordinary spanner (wrench)

https://vwparts.aircooled.net/ACN-Flanged-Racing-Intake-and-Exhaust-Nut-8-x-10mm-p/acn-nuts.htm
_________________
'91 Vanagon Westfalia
'70 Beetle Convertible
'71 Super Beetle Semi-Automatic: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=714131&highlight=
'65 Ghia: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=762478&highlight=
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sb001
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10399
Location: NW Arkansas
sb001 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2023 4:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Time to drop my engine again.... Reply with quote

Tom K. wrote:
I used these nuts and then an ordinary spanner (wrench)

https://vwparts.aircooled.net/ACN-Flanged-Racing-Intake-and-Exhaust-Nut-8-x-10mm-p/acn-nuts.htm


Thanks for that link Tom! That looks like exactly what I need to solve the problem.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Page 6 of 6

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.