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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22639 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 4:49 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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There is some horrific advice in this thread. If you can’t sort it out, have a pro wire this. This can kill you, as can some of the suggestions upthread _________________ .ssS! |
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space Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017 Posts: 673
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:03 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Abscate wrote: |
There is some horrific advice in this thread. If you can’t sort it out, have a pro wire this. This can kill you, as can some of the suggestions upthread |
Not sure to whom u are referring, but Ive been doing this for 30 years and a simple google search backs up my statements _________________ 82 westy
w:
2.5 JDM Subie
Rear discs |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:38 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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What is gained by having the car grounded to the 110? If you have an inverter in the car, is the output grounded to the car and if so why? |
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space Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017 Posts: 673
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:14 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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DuncanS wrote: |
What is gained by having the car grounded to the 110? If you have an inverter in the car, is the output grounded to the car and if so why? |
What is gained is the errant current dissipates to the ground thru the metal chassis etc
Rather than thru you to ground
fwiw to properly install a 100v system in a car it should be grounded regardless if it is using an inverter or not (shore power vs inverter)
A portable generator has a lug attached for just this purpose
If you follow the path of least resistance the errant current will follow the metal not the human (who has higher resistance to ground in most cases) to ground
The inverter is (or should be) grounded either by wire or case ground, again to dissipate the current
As youve noted earlier w/o a ground rod or plate your grnd system is incomplete and one increases their risk of shock
That being said to establish a grnd is not as difficult as it seems
a pipe, buried plate, metal fence post, shore power ground
edit: Fwiw on old 2 wire systems (knob and tube, groundless romex) the NEC allows the use of GFI's in lieu of ground _________________ 82 westy
w:
2.5 JDM Subie
Rear discs
Last edited by space on Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:00 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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The car sits on rubber tires, it is NOT grounded. Thus, you potentially become the ground path.
Signing off on this. There is only risk here and no rewards whatsoever. |
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space Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017 Posts: 673
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:04 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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DuncanS wrote: |
The car sits on rubber tires, it is NOT grounded. Thus, you potentially become the ground path.
Signing off on this. There is only risk here and no rewards whatsoever. |
You should read my post more thoroughly
I said
"As youve noted earlier w/o a ground rod or plate your grnd system is incomplete and one increases their risk of shock"
As an aside:
I once worked on a highway project and parked under the high voltage towers
the HV lines induced a charge on to the vehicle
that current resulted in a shock when touching any metal
if the vehicle were grounded that would not be the case _________________ 82 westy
w:
2.5 JDM Subie
Rear discs |
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space Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017 Posts: 673
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:19 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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One last point before i too sign off
In your scenario of "pa" wrongly connecting the hot wire to the neutral lug, if the van were earth grounded (through pa's shore power) it would immediately trip the breaker
direct fault to ground _________________ 82 westy
w:
2.5 JDM Subie
Rear discs |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:35 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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I give up. Vans don't get grounded unless you put a rod into the ground or a large flat plate on wet level dirt. If Pa put the positive on the ground lead, there is no ground for the circuit to go back to.
Abscate wrote: Do not get killed, do not kill others.
I'm done here. Do as you please, it's a free country. I'm not trying to argue, just stating my experience and thoughts.
But do me one favor. Tell me the advantage of having the car grounded in terms of the contained electrics on board.
Duncan |
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space Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2017 Posts: 673
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:06 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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DuncanS wrote: |
I give up. Vans don't get grounded unless you put a rod into the ground or a large flat plate on wet level dirt. If Pa put the positive on the ground lead, there is no ground for the circuit to go back to.
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Last post on this for clarity
if the van is grounded to shore power supply
consisting of a hot, neutral and ground
if Pa erroneously put the hot on the ground lead
power from the shore supply would travel through the metal of the van where the ground wire in the romex (which is connected to pa's grounding system through the extension cord)would cause the breaker to trip
The neutral and ground wire are both grounded to earth (in a properly functioning system)
hope that clarifies
T
as can be seen in the middle panel the ground (green) and the neutral (white) are connected to the same grounding bar _________________ 82 westy
w:
2.5 JDM Subie
Rear discs |
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:44 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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One last thought. I admit this may not be correct. Let's assume the car is not grounded other than through Pa's supply. Let's also assume that you have no 110 appliance on in the car. Pa's fault ground electrifies the T3. But since there is no connection at that point to return current back to his campsite supply, the car still retains its potential and there is nothing to trip.
Just out of curiosity, I'm going to try putting the positive 110 on the green screw of a GFI and see what happens.
However, all this verbiage by me and others, I have yet to be made aware of a non safety advantage to having the T3's metal connected to 110 V AC.
Here is one of the reasons boats separate the grounds.
Boats typically have a ton of expensive electronics aboard. Navigation, boat speed, wind direction, depth plotters, radar and sophisticated radios. These all run on 12 and or 24 VDC. They have their own grounds and bus bars, The grounds are only return current paths. The shore power is also independent with its own ground bus bar/s with no cross overs because a problem could possibly fry 50k worth of electronics.
With all the sophisticated stuff aboard T3s these days with solar panels, LiPo4's and all the management systems, I personally wouldn't want the risk of their loss. My tin/ragtop has none of this, so the question is immaterial. If I want shore power at a campground, I'll just run an ordinary extension cord and call it close enough. My Westy's shore power would consist of exactly that except for the plug behind the galley to get the juice inside. Once inside it would be unconnected to any thing else and be like the tail end of the extension cord. But I don't have one so.............
Roger, Wilco. Over and out.
Duncan |
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Chilepines Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2022 Posts: 139 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 6:32 pm Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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At the risk of reopening a can of worms, I'm confused about the difference of opinion on where the 12V ground should be. If there is a ground from the shore power to the chassis (which looks like what the green wire is doing), isn't it a moot point where you ground the 12V system on the chassis? Isn't the chassis acting like a big negative busbar? _________________ White 89 Westy with 2004 Subaru EJ25 - Betty |
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AndyBees Samba Member
Joined: January 31, 2008 Posts: 2325 Location: Southeast Kentucky
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2023 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Chilepines wrote: |
At the risk of reopening a can of worms, I'm confused about the difference of opinion on where the 12V ground should be. If there is a ground from the shore power to the chassis (which looks like what the green wire is doing), isn't it a moot point where you ground the 12V system on the chassis? Isn't the chassis acting like a big negative busbar? |
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Yes to your last question.
Although I am not a "certified" electrician, I've wired a number of houses in the last 30+ years (rural only, to meet or meeting local utility codes). So, that said, I see no need to ground the vehicle to the shore power. I'd treat the circumstances just like Duncan said.......... just like an extension cord which has the ground to shore in it. So, even a "receptacle" on the side of the Van (or other location) or cord and all outlets inside and outside of the Van to receive shore power, would be wired separately from the Van's 12 volt system, including grounding. _________________ '84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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Chilepines Samba Member
Joined: October 11, 2022 Posts: 139 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 6:06 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Duncan’s argument makes sense to me - the van is not grounded. Some of the discussion seems to mix “ground” and “negative”. I’m not planning much time connected to shore power and I’m definitely not planning to bring a ground rod to ram into the earth.
So does this mean that it would be better to get rid of the green ground wire from the shore power outlet? _________________ White 89 Westy with 2004 Subaru EJ25 - Betty |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32572 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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DuncanS Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2013 Posts: 4583 Location: New Hampshire
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 6:46 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Thank you, Dave.
Duncan |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32572 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 10:02 am Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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DuncanS wrote: |
Try this on for size. You go to a Ma Pa campground, as most are, and Pa has connected the leads backwards in the box where you plug in. He put the positive on the ground lead. This automatically makes your car hot. When you walk up to open the door in bare feet from your swim, you become the copper rod.
Why ever risk this?
Duncan |
This reverse of the black and white wire is WAY more common than you might suspect.
With inspections and permits........ you would think it cannot happen...... but it does.
Black and White wires being reversed usually will not affect the operation of the device.
Unlike DC, reversing the polarity changes nothing...... operational.
But trouble comes when day to day life takes place.
The most basic example of this is changing a screw in light bulb.
Look at the bulb...... the big metal threaded part? That is neutral aka White Wire.
The tiny little copper splot on the bottom? That is hot aka Black Wire.
If you wire the silver screw to black and the bottom splot to neutral...... bulb still works.
But unscrew the bulb with and while doing so touch the big metal thread and ZAP!
You become the ground and at best (and most often) you get a shock, in bad situations....... you die.
I cannot tell you how many wall switches, outlets and lamp fixtures that I've found over the years wired backwards! Mr handy husband meant well..... only he screwed up.
If Pa campground made some DIY repairs on his power grid...........
How to guard against this? Carry a circuit tester or a meter with you and check before plugging in.
Dave _________________ Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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MsTaboo Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006 Posts: 4083 Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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Yes, your camper should have a chassis ground as part of your shore power! Just like Westfalia planned it it avoid "hot skin". It's also needed for the breaker to work properly.
https://www.rvingsmart.com/does-an-rv-need-to-be-grounded/
https://www.rvtravel.com/proper-rv-chassis-grounding-to-prevent-hot-skin-condition/
There's no need to run a wire from the chassis to a stake in the ground , the ground path is through the shore power connection.
And yes, if you have an old junky Westy with corroded connections it needs attention.
And if you're worried about a poorly maintained campground power pole, then yes, test. _________________ Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
Defend democracy, support Ukraine. |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4765 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: shore power, inside outlet, and grounding? |
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djkeev wrote: |
If Pa campground made some DIY repairs on his power grid...........
How to guard against this? Carry a circuit tester or a meter with you and check before plugging in.
Dave |
back 3 lifetimes ago, i used to inspect restaurants, resorts, and campgrounds. these inevitably had RV spots added by the school teacher-now-turned-campground-owner for additional revenue streams. i'd bring my $2.99 wiring tester along and plug in just for grins. so. many. with wrong wiring. open grounds, reversed hot/neutral were the most common, as it is in homes too. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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