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Intermittent "Click" no starter turn
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doublecanister
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 8:07 am    Post subject: Intermittent "Click" no starter turn Reply with quote

Hey Folks!
Hope all are doing well, it's been a minute since I've been on here, not done much with the Vw or anything really (but work) in the past few years, well time has passed and I'm now finally getting back in action, decided to go to a local cars and coffee and meet a old friend there, well they canceled the event! Apparently the parking lot got apartments built there instead and lost the venue for the event. Rats!
My friend was working on his 2020 Mazda Miata Mx 5 (installed a supercharger) so in checking out he says "lets go for a test drive", well good thing we did the test drive "before" I ate lunch, I almost barfed from the torque, dang that thing is fast!

In driving over to his house and back again about a 45m to 1hr ride one way, Once I got home the fun began... I cut off the engine and went in side for a snack and to let the Thing cool down a bit.
Went to restart and click - no starter spin.
This is the 2nd time I could not get the starter to work, just a click under the rear seat which from what i've read up is the solenoid clicking but no starter spin.

The first time this happened the engine wasn't super warm, I was able to hand crank it (first time I ever used the hand crank) and the engine fired right up.

THIS time, I couldn't get it to start no matter what, I've always had the hot start issue with it too, after a long drive, cut off engine
and it heat soaks, it wont start unless you do the "3/4 to floored gas pedal crank" method.
I even gave it a shot or 2 of starter fluid and with multiple hand cranks I couldn't get the engine to fire so I had to push it in the garage.

So I'm probably facing 2 issues here, the starter and the heat soak/hot restart problem.

I did find a few good links on the starter issue and some methods to fix that, Mondshine always puts up nice diagrams
and helps explain that stuff pretty good (Thanks for that).

I'll start by cleaning everything first and see how it goes.

From what I've read already, it sounds like the "hard start relay kit" probably should be installed just to fix a few issues (with the ignition switch and possibly corroded wiring) as a preventative measure going forward anyways.

Both of my battery Cables are relatively new with in the past few years and I added a previously missing ground strap to the transmission in the past 2-3 years.
Tried to start with my jump box (when the 'click no start" condition was occurring) with no effect so that should have eliminated the battery.
(although the battery had gone flat on me earlier this year but since a recharge and some light cruising it was working fine until this start-click issue surfaced).

I've Not been underneath the car yet to inspect anything may try to do that today or Monday and clean all connections and inspect.

Figured I'd clean all connections and retest and try to reproduce.

Side note to the starter issue, some of the searches also led me down the road of the "hot engine/hard restart problem"
I know my heat risers get rather hot to the point of "finger sizzlers" - at least the passenger side does.
I've not put a heat gun on them yet but this "Thing" has always been hard to restart after a long drive. Always seems to require
a 3/4-floored pedal restart procedure.
I'm thinking i'd need to pull the gaskets for the heat riser and see if they are big hole gaskets and if so replace with smaller hole ones.
In reading up on how the heat riser system is supposed to work, mine has always seemed to get too hot.

Well I obviously need to get it "starting" before I rip into this heat riser business so I'll leave that for "round 2".

Just wanted to explain what I'm dealing with for now.

Was hoping to make it to Kubeltreffen this year as it's only maybe 2hrs from me so hopefully I can fix this before then.

Thanks for any suggestions on any of this, I'll report back what I find.


T
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Intermittent "Click" no starter turn Reply with quote

Do you know how to do a "voltage drop test"?
I would do that on the Terminal 50 wire (red/black) that powers the solenoid.

This is a link to the Michigan Vintage Volkswagen Club Newsletter from the first quarter of 2023 (I am the editor).

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gsOn0QU_OCtcllzIhiEsvJx7GAiEzBrh/view?usp=drive_link

Starting on Page 12 is an article on voltage drop testing.
This is useful for anybody with an old car.

I hope that's helpful, and I hope to see you in July at KTE.

By the way, My son drives a Miata during the summer months.
The thing is like a go-cart!
But it takes me 15 minutes to climb in, and half an hour to climb out.
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doublecanister
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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2023 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Intermittent "Click" no starter turn Reply with quote

Hey Mondshine,

Not sure i've done one of those before but I believe I understand what it's trying to explain, I'll give it a try.
It's been nasty weather here so didn't get to open the garage today, hopefully tomorrow I can try to get the car up so I can get under it.

Thanks for the link explaining it.

And yeah I was planning on going to the show in July not sure yet if I'm staying, may just go for the day. Depends on how freakin hot it gets but it's still rather cool here this late in May I'm hoping we'll have a cooler summer this year.

And that's cool about your Son driving one of those Mazda's they are nice cars but it's super small/tight and yeah
getting in and out was a bit of a challenge.

Thanks again for the info I'll see what I can find.

stay tuned!

T
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doublecanister
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2023 10:25 am    Post subject: Re: Intermittent "Click" no starter turn Reply with quote

Hey Mondshine,

I tried to do this voltage drop test and here's what I found.
Didn't get into the ignition switch yet, just battery, starter and cleaned the starter connections...

Just for kicks, tried to start the engine and it cranked OK after being cold overnight.

So is this the hot start problem that folks have been installing the starter relay kit for? (sounds like it)

Well, here's the readings I got...

Battery voltage is 12.43 V at the battery itself.

Battery test:
during the 3sec crank volts on batt, meter read 10.80v apx

10.60v reading underneath at starter while starting.(on pos cable mount bolt)

Negative side test
.20v drop on ground nut lug on starter with a few 3sec cranks.

The litle red wire to solenoid-
1v - 2.98v drop- tried a few times with 3 sec crank.

Let me know what you think here if any of ths points to a sign of the ignition switch issue.

But now that I understand this "voltage drop" process, I'm sure
I can check other items and confirm good grounds and connections.

Thanks for any info on this,

T
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2023 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: Intermittent "Click" no starter turn Reply with quote

Here's a basic sketch of the starter wiring.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Each connection (and i have probably left out a couple) is a possible failure point due to corrosion, frayed wires, loose terminals, etc.

So wherever you find a voltage drop, now you must trace it back to the source until you find the fault.

The hard (or hot) start relay idea is basically a way to bypass all of these potential failure points by applying battery voltage directly to the starter solenoid (Terminal 50) just like "jumping" it with a screw driver as we all did in the olden days.
But before you resort to the relay, try to fix it properly by finding the true problem.

Good luck.
See you in Appomattox next month.
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74 Thing
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2023 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: Intermittent "Click" no starter turn Reply with quote

If your battery reads 12.4v then it is only 75 percent. I would take it out and take it to an autoparts store and have it load tested.

That is the first place I would start.

Then check and clean grounds and solenoid and fuse connections and then go from there.
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doublecanister
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: Intermittent "Click" no starter turn Reply with quote

hey 74Thing and Mondshine.

On the battery: During the Hot-no crank condition I did attempt to
use my 12v jump box to eliminate the battery. No engine crank, just the solenoid click at the starter.

I'm assuming using the jump box should have eliminated the battery in this test being the battery was at least 12v and not lower.
It is getting old but I did a battery test for 10sec with my battery tester and it was still in the green so right off
it appears it's ok or good enough to use, but a replacement may be in order.

When I did the starter crank re-test the following morning after sitting overnight all works fine and starter cranks easily.
So it's defiantly heat/heat soak related.

Did some more research and Rob and Daves Vw page mentioned the solenoid can go bad/get dirty/stuck or whatever in heat soak conditions.
They mentioned pulling the starter, pulling the solenoid and cleaning it and some solder work may be involved to remove the solenoid and reinstall.
I've never done that before so unknown if it's worth doing or just going with a new starter.

Also since my voltdrop test only showed minimal voltage drop on that little red wire to the starter solenoid,
I downloaded the wire diagrams and I will retrace that circuit and clean what I can.
I was surprised that underneath those cables were pretty clean actually, But I removed and cleaned them before I did any of my tests.

The ignition switch i'm reading can also be the culprit.
But, since this problem only seems to occur when in heat soak condition

I was thinking, I do have a remote starter bump-tool for engine bumping, maybe I could use that (after getting the engine hot again)
then test with the ignition switch first. if it clicks,
then
I could try the remote starter button and see if I get same results a click or a start.

Using that should remove the switch from the issue and confirm the solenoid is the problem.
or if it does start with the button and not the ignition switch then it's the switch.

What ya think there?

From what I'm seeing and reading in research (right now) it's leaning me to the starter solenoid. at least(when hot).

But I'll keep digging.

Thanks again yall for the assistance i'll post up when I know more. May be this weekend before I can dig into it again.

T
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:46 am    Post subject: Re: Intermittent "Click" no starter turn Reply with quote

Here's another sketch, and another way to look at it.

Using your VOM (set to read DC volts) probe between the like numbered points in the sketch.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


As examples, with the starter turning:
Probing between points labeled "1", any reading other than zero would indicate unwanted resistance at the battery post.
Probing between points labeled "2", any reading other than zero would indicate unwanted resistance at the starter lug.
Probing between points labeled "3", any reading other than zero would indicate unwanted resistance in the Terminal 50 (solenoid) wire.
Probing between points labeled "4", any reading other than zero would indicate unwanted resistance in the "main artery" at the headlight switch.
Probing between points labeled "5", any reading other than zero would indicate unwanted resistance in the ignition switch at the "start" contacts.

And on and on (and on!). There are many more places to test that I nave not illustrated.
For example: Let's say in test labeled "3", you see a 2 volt drop. Is the solenoid wire terminal loose at the plastic connector on the ignition switch? At the other end of that wire, is the terminal loose at the starter? The voltage drop test will let you narrow down the fault.

Another sketch:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


In this sketch, just as an example, we are looking for unwanted resistance at the Terminal 50 connection at the starter solenoid. Any reading other than zero (with the solenoid energized) would indicate a problem.

Every connection point in every circuit is a possible source of unwanted resistance from corrosion, dirt, loose fitting terminals, frayed wires, etc.
Remember, these cars are 50 years old!

But this simple method of voltage drop testing is a very useful diagnostic tool for all old cars.


Plan B... There will be lots of guys to help you with a push-start at Kubel Treffen. See you in Appomattox!


Last edited by mondshine on Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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doublecanister
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:16 am    Post subject: Re: Intermittent "Click" no starter turn Reply with quote

Hey Mondshine,

That's a very nice diagram and explanation for sure.

Thank you for explaining it.

Going to try to do some more cleanings today and maybe I can redo some of these test readings.

Thanks again and stay tuned.

T
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: Intermittent "Click" no starter turn Reply with quote

Update:
Well so far whatever I've done in going thru the connections & cleaning and testing, it seems to have helped and hopefully fixed it for now.

I noticed yesterday (after about a 40m round trip) sitting 15min and restart, she cranked over and the starter
sounded like it had more umph to it than previous (it cranked faster).

So I was unable to duplicate the crank no start just "click" issue so far.

One wire was repaired where a prev owner had spliced into for radio power and it was one of the heavy red w/black stripe wires to
the ignition switch and other end is on the light switch.

So it seems to be better for now, more testing will confirm. Thanks Mondshine for the suggestions!

Side note:
I would like to do some more spade connector cleanings but was unable to get the light switch bezel off the dash
(don't have a bezel removal tool but will look for one and using needle nose pliers wasn't working- I was going to break/scratch something).

I Really need to remove the light switch and the fuse box connections all need to be all removed one at a time and cleaned good
but with so much stuff in the way it was difficult to do with the light switch and the heater timer in the way.

>I'll look for one of those bezel removal tools but if anyone knows a good place to locate I'll snap one up.

Battery replacement, I may get another battery as well as I noticed this one has some age on it since last replaced.

>Are the yellow top Optima's a good way to go?

The reason I ask is I know the interior of the THING can often smell like battery acid or that's what I'm thinking it is.
Was thinking a Optima may help remove that odor, It goes away after driving but when it sits for a while the cabin gets
that funky smell i'd like to get rid of.

Well, Thanks everyone for the help, I'm going to continue to test this THING in preparation for Kubeltreffen Appomattox this year.
Hope to make it and see yall there.

T
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: Intermittent "Click" no starter turn Reply with quote

You have probably noticed that the slot in the headlight switch bezel is rounded (rather than a straight slot).

I have been successful using a hardened washer, held in a vice-grips, with a slot cut out of it for the switch stem Like the letter "C".

Sketch:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Good luck.
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doublecanister
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: Intermittent "Click" no starter turn Reply with quote

Hey Mondshine, I can try that.

Thanks!

T
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 1:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Intermittent "Click" no starter turn Reply with quote

Well no luck with the cut washer idea, this bezel/escutcheon thing is on their pretty tight.

How tight? it's so tight I'm going to break something trying to remove it this way.

so Just asking but this dash bezel thing, it's not backwards threads for the headlight switch is it?

Anyways I did find a tool online that's closer than California to me so I ordered one.

https://www.mtmfg.com/part/view/tools-amp-accessor...p;src=3209

But thanks for the suggestion as it was a good idea and it should have worked but either it's on there super gorilla tight or the threads are reversed.
Either way I'm not having any luck and I'm starting to damage the bezel/escutcheon.

Once I get the light switch and the timer removed I'll have some room to clean more contacts/spade connections, probably should have done this
a long time ago...

T
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: Intermittent "Click" no starter turn Reply with quote

Well I finally got it, but Dang that thing was stuck!

I ended up having to tighten it a bit then loosen and it came right off, must have been stuck to the paint cause it was on there gorilla tight.


And Got the Thing out to give it a bath, started right up!

Yay!

T
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2023 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Intermittent "Click" no starter turn Reply with quote

Good news.
I will see you soon. Right now, the weather forecast looks like shit, but KTE is a rain or shine event for me.
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doublecanister
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2023 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: Intermittent "Click" no starter turn Reply with quote

Yeah, it's been hit n miss on thunderstorms in our area, some powerful ones too, had it blow 2 big pine trees down but thank goodness it was up in the woods away from the house.

I just checked the 10 day forecast myself and Fri-Sat-Sun show pm scattered thunderstorms but it's still a few days out so hopefully it will change.

Be safe driving in that stuff, if you roll with the top down you may need a Stahlhelm or a Pickelhaube to help with any Hail. LOL

No but seriously, we are in the weather pattern where these small storms can whip up and be rather rough.

Hoping for no rain and nice weather for our event and all have safe travels to and from KTE 2023!

T
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