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a2d2
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2013
Posts: 366
Location: EastVanagon, BC
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 Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 11:23 pm Post subject: Need help identifying a large piece of metal I found in my oil |
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Found a concerning piece of metal during an oil change yesterday:
It is magnetic and based on it's shape it doesn't seem related to rod/main bearings, lifters, rings, or valve seats.
Seems like a washer but I can't figure out where the heck it would have come from or how much I should be stressing about it.
Engine seems to be running fine, no new noises, and still has good compression.
Any ideas?
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1981 Vanagon, Aircooled 2.0 AFC
1978 Baywindow Bus (R.I.P.) |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76902
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2023 11:52 pm Post subject: Re: Need help identifying a large piece of metal I found in my oil |
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Rocker arm spring washer.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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a2d2
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2013
Posts: 366
Location: EastVanagon, BC
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 12:29 am Post subject: Re: Need help identifying a large piece of metal I found in my oil |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Rocker arm spring washer. |
Thanks Glenn, I'm going to pull the valve covers and take a look tomorrow.
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1978 Baywindow Bus (R.I.P.) |
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germansupplyscott
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Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7093
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 2:56 am Post subject: Re: Need help identifying a large piece of metal I found in my oil |
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I think the diameter is too large for it to be part of the rocker arm spring washer. My guess is that it's the thrust flange of the rearmost cam bearing, but that would be a lot more concerning and would likely be accompanied by some noticeable noise.
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RalphWiggam
Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2018
Posts: 906
Location: SouthEast
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 4:52 am Post subject: Re: Need help identifying a large piece of metal I found in my oil |
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| germansupplyscott wrote: |
| I think the diameter is too large for it to be part of the rocker arm spring washer. My guess is that it's the thrust flange of the rearmost cam bearing, but that would be a lot more concerning and would likely be accompanied by some noticeable noise. |
I thought it was the same thing. I guess it could be magnetic depending on what type of bearings were bought. |
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PatJr
Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2010
Posts: 204
Location: earth
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 6:17 am Post subject: Re: Need help identifying a large piece of metal I found in my oil |
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place my bet on cam bearing
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bsairhead
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 3560
Location: viroqua wi.
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 9:28 am Post subject: Re: Need help identifying a large piece of metal I found in my oil |
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| I can't envision something that big came from the top end. Is this a type 4? |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Need help identifying a large piece of metal I found in my oil |
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Cam bearing flange.
If it's a type 4....stop now and put new bearings in, check and clean, new seals and count yourself lucky you caught it.
I would install a double thrust cam bearing. Ray |
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a2d2
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2013
Posts: 366
Location: EastVanagon, BC
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Need help identifying a large piece of metal I found in my oil |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Cam bearing flange.
If it's a type 4....stop now and put new bearings in, check and clean, new seals and count yourself lucky you caught it. |
Crap. It is a Type 4 (2.0L) and that sure does look similar to this picture I found in another post:
I know my way around enough that I've replaced heads and pistons/cylinders before but I have yet to split a case. I do have a spare I've been planning to dig into when I get the courage, looks like the time is now.
Just to be sure, is there anyone that has a thrust bearing and is willing to humor me by measuring the outside diameter? I'm 93% sure this is what it is but you know how it is... there is always that little voice inside telling you it's something less serious... and confirming the diameter would put me up to 98% certainty.
Thanks
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12721
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed May 31, 2023 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Need help identifying a large piece of metal I found in my oil |
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It's a cam bearing. You've saved thousands of dollars by rebuilding it now 
Robbie
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orwell84
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007
Posts: 2536
Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 6:03 am Post subject: Re: Need help identifying a large piece of metal I found in my oil |
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That sucks, but you really dodged a bullet. It could be a lot worse.
Getting the cam bearings, camshaft and oil pump set up properly is one of those things that makes rebuilding a Type 4 so hard. It has become more complicated over the years for a number of reasons and it’s not in books.
When you get to that point, be sure to take advantage of all the knowledge and experience here. There has been so much written about it that the authors will direct you to the relevant information. I have been through the process when rebuilding after a similar problem. |
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Vanagonsgoslow
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2019
Posts: 82
Location: E Dorado Hills, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: Need help identifying a large piece of metal I found in my oil |
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| Check the oil pump to make sure the pump gear shaft hasn’t walked out of the oil pump housing and is putting pressure on the cam gear, thereby forcing the thrust face on the cam bearing to be destroyed. |
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bsairhead
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008
Posts: 3560
Location: viroqua wi.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2023 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Need help identifying a large piece of metal I found in my oil |
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| a2d2 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Cam bearing flange.
If it's a type 4....stop now and put new bearings in, check and clean, new seals and count yourself lucky you caught it. |
Crap. It is a Type 4 (2.0L) and that sure does look similar to this picture I found in another post:
I know my way around enough that I've replaced heads and pistons/cylinders before but I have yet to split a case. I do have a spare I've been planning to dig into when I get the courage, looks like the time is now.
Just to be sure, is there anyone that has a thrust bearing and is willing to humor me by measuring the outside diameter? I'm 93% sure this is what it is but you know how it is... there is always that little voice inside telling you it's something less serious... and confirming the diameter would put me up to 98% certainty.
Thanks |
The bore for the cam shaft bearings is 1.0826-1.0834 So your picture with the outside showing 1-1/2 inch or so is a perfect match. |
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orwell84
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007
Posts: 2536
Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Need help identifying a large piece of metal I found in my oil |
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| Vanagonsgoslow wrote: |
| Check the oil pump to make sure the pump gear shaft hasn’t walked out of the oil pump housing and is putting pressure on the cam gear, thereby forcing the thrust face on the cam bearing to be destroyed. |
Another one of those things not in books and the problem I ended up having. Stock oil pump wouldn’t work. Switched to an aftermarket. Shoved it in. The pump drive tang was set too long and it pushed the cam into the thrust bearing. I didn’t notice it when I installed it with the engine in. I figured it out before anything happened. I found that the cam end play had opened up a lot. |
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a2d2
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2013
Posts: 366
Location: EastVanagon, BC
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Need help identifying a large piece of metal I found in my oil |
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| bsairhead wrote: |
| The bore for the cam shaft bearings is 1.0826-1.0834 So your picture with the outside showing 1-1/2 inch or so is a perfect match. |
Thanks for confirming. I have now come to terms with my fate and am currently sitting at 99.4% certainty.
| Vanagonsgoslow wrote: |
Check the oil pump to make sure the pump gear shaft hasn’t walked out of the oil pump housing and is putting pressure on the cam gear, thereby forcing the thrust face on the cam bearing to be destroyed.
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Thanks for the tip, I would have never thought to check that.
Thinking back, there was a trip last fall that involved a long, steep, climb before pulling over for the night.
In the morning, the van would barely turn over and wouldn't start. I checked the oil and was horrified to see it lower than I've ever seen it before. After topping it up and trying again I got it to start but if I remember correctly it didn't sound too happy at first.
I drove away counting my lucky stars that I got away with it but I guess I didn't. I've logged about 2500 problem free km's since then but it sure seems like that's what might have caused this. 
Got a big box of parts today, including an engine stand, so it's time to pull out the Wilson book, rewatch the BugMe video, and scour the forum for releveant threads.
Thanks everyone for the help, you guys and this forum are the best.
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orwell84
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007
Posts: 2536
Location: Plattsburgh, New York
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:00 am Post subject: Re: Need help identifying a large piece of metal I found in my oil |
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Here is a link to setting up the cam and bearings for my own engine build. I had a lot of help from forum members and there are links within where this info is explained at length. It took me a lot of time to get it right as it was the first time through the process. I could probably do it a lot more quickly now. It’s worth doing as it’s one of those areas within the engine that the combination of original and aftermarket parts just don’t fit together nicely. If we were back in John Muir days when machine shop services and original parts were readily available in wouldn’t the ass ache that it is today. Those days are long gone.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...;start=480 |
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