Hot Street 1835 Build Recommendation

[Peter Hops]

Hello Samba residents!

After a long hiatus from the ACVW world, I'm back with a new project that I could use your wisdom on.

I bought an early 67 beetle from a member on here that came with a fairly new/low milage (~3000miles) 1600sp. It was professionally built by a gentleman in Michigian - Primo Petrucci of Petrucci Racing Engines. All new parts were used except for the sp heads. Build sheet listed below.

The previous owner ran this motor quite lean (30pict-1 w/ 117main, 125air) and the the motor runs well but has low compression. Motor is out of the car and since I'm already planning a top end rebuild, I figured it's a good time to upgrade while it's apart. New motor is going to be an 1835 built for weekend street use with occasional romps...

Here is what I currently have:

New AS41 - Full Flowed
Forged 69 crank - non cw
late forged rods
AA 92TW
CB chromo pushrods
CB 1.25 Rockers w/ swivel feet
CB Panchito heads 54cc w/ dual springs
Stock weight forged flywheel - 4dowel & stock gland nut
Kennedy stg1 pressure plate
Sachs stock disc
48 EPC's (IDA clones)
Tall manifolds that I plan to match port
1 5/8 merged hideaway
CB Magnaspark 2
Crank, rods, flywheel were race balanced by Primo

Here's my plan... Tear the motor down, split the case and if everything looks good and the bearings are all ok, I am pulling the rotating assembly out in one piece. Send the case to the machine shop to get bored for 90.5. Clean everything and drop the rotating assembly back in just as it was. New cam, lifters and cam bearings though. Other than end play and general visual/feel checks, I wouldn't expect to do a ton of measuring here. Am I wrong?

Regarding cam choice, I have a few on my short list but would like some input on what might be the best choice for a setup like this. Shooting for an 8.5:1 CR with 0.04 deck.

*I might rebuild this in a couple years to an 2180 so not fly cutting the heads at this time*

Engle 120
CB 2242
CB 2288
Web 163
Any others you would recommend?

So that's it folks. If any of this looks wonky, please call it out. I'm open to suggestions!

[Glenn]

Why non cw crank?
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Member #1009

#BlueSquare

[Peter Hops]

Primarily budget. I’d like to get some use out of good stock parts and keep the build simple and quick. The compression issue wasn’t an expected event.

When the budget allows in a few years, I plan to rebuild this same motor up to a 2180 - inspired by you sir!

I may add a cb black box to the mix just to have the rev limiter for now.

[Glenn]

48IDA clones?

4 dowel and stock gland nut?

Sorry but doesn't make a lot of sense.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Member #1009

#BlueSquare

[modok]

I don't see the logic.
Your ignition system is costing more than a stroker crank.

I'm probably behind the times on the current state of the hobby,..... but most of the cars I bought came with working distributors, and most of them still work.

You can replace or...(I dread this word) "upgrade" the carbs or ignition system easily at any time, unlike the crank which is deep inside the engine.

[vwracerdave]

48 EPC are way too big for an 1835, so is the 1 5/8" exhaust.

With a non-counterweighted crank I wouldn't run anything larger than a W-110 cam, 40 IDF's, and 1 3/8" exhaust.

I know you said you are on a tight budget and I fully understand. If there is any way possible, I'd skip the 1835 and build the 2180.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63

Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos

[Peter Hops]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I truly appreciate it.

Original plan was to keep the 1600sp for a few years while building a bigger motor. Just a few upgrades were planned for the 1600 that could be transferred over to the new motor - magnaspark being one of them bc the price for a MS2 kit is almost the same as a pertronix ignition module and would work well with the 30pict.

Long story but I bought the car without seeing it in person based on the pictures, documentation and PO background. After i got the car and took it for a drive, found it wouldn’t go more that 10-15 miles before oil temp climbed to 240 and still rising. Checked the normal stuff - carb jetting, seals, timing. Carb jetting was waaay off so next I pulled the plugs to read them and found about half an in of oil on top of each piston. Did a compression test and… 68-75-88-92.

So after spending way too much on a “fully restored “ car that was supposed to be good to go… here I am with the motor out and spending more up front than I intended to.

The game plan now is to rebuild as big as I can and only what is needed for now without rendering anything obsolete when time comes for the stroker. Hence 48epc’s and 1 5/8 exhaust. I realize these are overkill for this motor but doable with understood trade offs. The EPC’s are actually jetted for around 1800cc and I’ve seen 1600’s run them with success. I think they’re just easier to work on and around than IDF’s anyway. I’ll loose some bottom end with the big exhaust but careful cam choice and ignition mapping may be able to compensate?

I spent a lot of time researching old threads here using stock cranks, rods and IDA’s and found quite a few positive combos doing this. I fully understand that this is not the ideal setup but it’s a stepping stone in the right direction with at least some potential to be successful.

So I can see changing the gland nut out. Giving the 48’s a shot and dialing them down if needed (34 vents). What cam would you guys recommend that has a good bottom and midrange that would top out around 6kish?

[vwracerdave]

I know this isn't what you want to hear. I suggest you put the 1600 back together spending the least amount necessary to get it running smoothly. Save, Save, Save, until you can afford the 2180 the way you want it. Your 1835 ideal is just wasting money on something that is a gross mis-match of parts that will never run smoothly, get horrible gas milage, and you will never be happy with.
_________________
2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63

Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos

[Peter Hops]

Solid advice Dave and I do appreciate it. At this point, money has been spent and I just have to move forward good or bad.

I talked with CB about the build and they seem to think it’s a good plan and will make power. They also recommend staying with the stock crank, rods and flywheel as it sits. They claim a stock balanced rotating assembly can handle 6k no problem. And mind you, it won’t see that high of rpm constantly. Maybe in a blue moon. The 2180 wouldn’t either for that matter.

So the cam and lifters purchased. Cb2242 with their lightweight 28mm lifters - clearanced for stroker crank. Should be able to reuse this later on. I also understand this to be a good cam choice for turbo applications in case my plans change at some point.

Another option I thought of that might work is to send the crank, rods, flywheel and pp to DPR for balancing and counterweight. Thoughts on that?

[bedlamite]

You've fallen for the sunk cost fallacy.

CB is technically right, the crank can handle 6k rpm. The problem is that it will pound out the center main well below that, and you will need a new case way sooner than you think. Leave the stock cam in and your case might live.
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Yes, I am going to deviate from the dogma of St Ferdinand. This heretic will use HVX mods, oil coolers, solid rockers, and 8 dowel cranks. IME they help, even on an otherwise stock engine. Deal with it.

[txoval]

Yeah, I would have bought a new set of 85.5’s and be driving

Did you already buy the 48’s?

[b-man]

When I was still a teenager (has it really been 45 years?) I had a hot street 1835. That was as much engine as you could get on the cheap in those days.

Home ported stock 35.5x32 brand new dual-port heads, flycut .140” for what I thought was around 10 to 10.5:1. I messed with (messed up?) the chambers unshrouding the valves and never checked chamber volumes, they looked pretty much the same so….

Engle 130 cam (267 @ .050, .460” lift) with stock 1.1:1 rockers, elephant foot adjusters, bolt together rocker shafts and heavy duty aluminum pushrods.

Welded counterweighted 69mm German 1300 crank, eight 11/32” dowel 12-pound 6V 200mm flywheel, KEP 1700 pressure plate (they didn’t call it a Stage 1 back then) and a solid center disc. New set of ISS racing rods which were pretty much just a heavier copy of a stock 1600 rod, they looked good and I needed rods so there you are.

I don’t remember if I had anything balanced, probably not. All built on the original 1966 1300 F case, even the stock 21mm oil pump was used after it was blueprinted by my engine machinist and plugged for full flow filtering.

Thin wall 92mm ISS piston & cylinder set, thick wall 92s were far away in the future. The newest greatest Cool Tin under the cylinders, most of us never knew it was a factory Type III part, 10mm head studs.

Brand new Italian 48IDAs ($110 each) on tall Race Trim manifolds, those manifolds came with raised D-shaped ports that overhung my already maxed-out unwelded head ports by about 1/8”. Ran fine actually, more than fine. I ran the 37mm venturies as supplied and changed the jetting according to recommendations from people in the know, namely Bill Taylor and Dick Nuss at TAYCO. Ran their copy of the EMPI crossbar linkage, no air cleaners (as if anything would fit).

Exhaust was either through stock heater boxes and a 1-3/8” S&S 4 into 1 with dual quiet packs or a little competition non-merged 1-3/8 header that was given to me because the 3-bolt flange had broken off. I fixed it by extending the old collector using a cone from an old 2-stroke expansion chamber and welding the flange back on. I swapped exhausts when I went to a race event.

I chose all the components and assembled everything myself. I did a lot of things then the way I know better not to do now, that engine never broke or left me stranded. What I didn’t know didn’t hurt me.

The car was a lightened 1966 bug (no bumpers, running boards, back seat or spare tire/jack) on Centerline 3-1/2” & 4-3/4” wheels, new 135 Michelin & 165 worn Continental tires. Close ratio 1.48/1.04 3rd & 4th, 4.375 ring & pinion, super diff and aluminum side cover built by TAYCO.

The 48s worked because I had plenty of compression and a fairly light car with tight enough gearing. Plus I’m sure they were jetted pig-rich which made up for a lot of sin tuning-wise, the two progression holes performed fine for everyday driving (WOT whenever possible). Ignition was tbe tried and true Bosch 010, Bosch blue coil and NGK plugs.

So giant carbs, big cam, tiny valves and exhaust. It just plain worked. This VW definitely had the attention of the local muscle car owners.

The car kicked ass at the street races, ran consistently in the 13.70s on those old dried-up Continentals that were worn down nice and even to the tread wear indicators.

I regularly wringed it past 6500, usually shifted out of first at over 7k and second at 6800. I flogged it mercilessly like any self respecting 18 or 19 year old hot rodder would, I saw it as my duty to go out and kick V8 ass on the regular.

The 1835 you’re planning on building is a waste of funds and energy in my humble opinion. For just a few more dollars in the grand scheme of things just build the 2180. Just because you have that balanced stock rotating assembly doesn’t mean you have to use it.

I was a poor teenager when I built my 1835. No way at that stage of my life could I afford big valve heads that were professionally worked or a stroker crank so I made lemonade out of those lemons. Stroker cranks are very affordable now compared to back then, same goes for good cylinder heads.

Good luck with the 2180 you should build.
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1956 Dove Blue Panel
1966 Velvet Green Single Cab
1957 L41 Black Oval Window Beetle

[esde]

[johnnyvw164]

Always interesting when people ask for advice....and pretty much ignore it. Oh well...you can lead a horse to water and all that.

[Bill Schwimmer]

I have run 1835's & 1776's IDA's & 1 5/8 headers that ran good, just depends on the combo. What troubles me the most here is the 4 dowell flywheel/crank. If you do a burnout it is history. It might even lose the flywheel just from acceleration. It will fail.

[Glenn]

[Brian_e]

[Peter Hops]

I missed these replies. Sorry fellas.

So the IDA’s are off the list. I ordered them but apparently empi is back ordered and no eta. The price I got from car craft was awesome and was mostly the reason why I went with them.

Everything else on the list is bought and paid for though.

92tw A’s
Panchitos w/ dual springs
Cb 2242 cam
Cb 1.25 rockers
1 5/8 merge hideaway
Kennedy stg 1 pp
Magnaspark2

I thought about everything you all said and think I could swing a 74 crank w/ my stock rods and 8 dowel FW. Saying this because I already have the A pistons.

Would a 1968 w/ dual 40’s or 44’s make this a good combo?

[94touring]

You'll be nicely at 9:1:1 compression with 54cc chambers, 92x74 and 0.04 deck.

The 48s lack in low end torque vs the 44s, the 40s gain a little low end over the 44s, the 44s offer more top end over the 40s.

[b-man]

If you’re putting in a stroker crank just go 82mm. No big deal to sell the 92a pistons and buy some 92b pistons. Your rods would work with the longer stroke crank and you’ll end up with a narrower engine.

With the current 54cc heads you’re at 9.97:1 with .040” deck or 9.85:1 with .045” deck. Working the chambers to gain a few more ccs to 57cc would net you 9.55:1 at .040” deck or 9.44:1 with .045” deck.

Don’t deny yourself the 2180 engine you really want just because you might have to spend a little extra to change direction some.

Just because you already have it doesn’t mean you have to use it. I did the exact same thing, bought Tims Stage 1 50cc heads and 92a pistons for an 1835. I had a fresh 1835 race engine (12:1 compression, FK87 cam, 82 stroke pistons/cut down barrels) sitting a long time from when life got in the way of racing and decided to make it more street friendly. I bought new heads to lower the compression, a street cam (86b) and 92a AA pistons and cylinders.

Sold the 50cc heads and had new Stage 2 60cc heads built and will later sell the 92a p&c set because I changed direction to get the street 2180 I really wanted.

I was also thinking about using a 74mm crank to try to salvage whatever I could from my misdirected 1835 build but I came to my senses and forgot about building the 1968 and went 2180. The 74mm cranks are softer 4140, the 82mm are better longer wearing 4340 so that’s another consideration.

Get that 82 stroke in there.

And the 48IDAs too.
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1956 Dove Blue Panel
1966 Velvet Green Single Cab
1957 L41 Black Oval Window Beetle