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coolbugfan Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2018 Posts: 330
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Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:15 pm Post subject: wobbly wheel UPDATED! |
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My 1965 1200 sedan has been driving nicely, but I did notice a rattle type noise from the back of the car when going over bumps. It sounded like something was loose. Also, after a recent drive, I notice 'dust' on the wheel rim for the rear passenger side wheel. (Stock wheels, easy to see dust on the white paint.)
I wondered if the brakes (drum) needed adjusting, so I jacked up the car. I then noticed some grease had leaked out of the castle nut in the center of the wheel. It was in the rim of the hubcap. It was not a large amount.
But more worryingly, I was able to easily rock the rear wheel in and out (toward and away from the car). The wheel is very tightly bolted to the car and the castle nut still has it's retaining cotter pin, so neither of those are loose.
I'm at a loss as to what is loose or in need of repair/replacement. All I do know, is I don't want to reinact the three-wheeled Herbie scene from The Love Bug!
Help, suggestions and diagnosis appreciated. Thanks, Sambas!
PS: car is stock for suspension and ride height. Recently rebuilt transmission, so lots of new parts in that area of the car.
Last edited by coolbugfan on Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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coolbugfan Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2018 Posts: 330
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Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 6985 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel |
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coolbugfan wrote: |
I then noticed some grease had leaked out of the castle nut in the center of the wheel.
I was able to easily rock the rear wheel in and out (toward and away from the car). |
Sounds like the drum is likely worn out where it fits on the splined part of the axle. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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scrivyscriv Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011 Posts: 2918 Location: Memphis
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Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel |
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I think so too, but I’m surprised the play is in and out, and not radial. It does look like maybe gear oil is getting pumped out around that castle nut though. There shouldn’t be any grease in the rear axle of a swingaxle bug - maybe the splines were greased prior to assembly?
I’d suggest to pull the drum off and check for spline wear on the axle, or more likely, the drum itself; and have a seal kit ready for that wheel bearing as well _________________ Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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coolbugfan Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2018 Posts: 330
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:10 am Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel |
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So, new brake drum and possibly some seals. Thanks! |
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67rustavenger Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015 Posts: 9663 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:56 am Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel |
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coolbugfan wrote: |
So, new brake drum and possibly some seals. Thanks! |
Pull then wheel assembly and validate what needs repairing/replacing.
It would be sad that you ordered the replacement parts, only to find that you didn't get everything you needed to get it back on the road. _________________ I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 6985 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:13 am Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel |
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67rustavenger wrote: |
coolbugfan wrote: |
So, new brake drum and possibly some seals. Thanks! |
Pull then wheel assembly and validate what needs repairing/replacing.
It would be sad that you ordered the replacement parts, only to find that you didn't get everything you needed to get it back on the road. |
^^ x2
Always verify the diagnosis first, then get replacement parts as required. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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VWNate Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2016 Posts: 355 Location: Sunny So. Cal.
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:22 am Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel |
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The presence of a cotter pin is zero guarantee the castle nut was properly tightened . _________________ -Nate
One last Beetle : 1959 #113 DeLuxe survivor ~ 36HP & full synchro tranny, 6 volts etc. |
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tcoop1100 Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2004 Posts: 194 Location: Hilo, Moku O Keawe, Moana Pakipika
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel |
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VWNate wrote: |
The presence of a cotter pin is zero guarantee the castle nut was properly tightened . |
^^^This^^^
One of the things I've learned to do over the years with any car new to me is to jack it up and check bearings, brakes, suspension, etc. When I did this on my new-to-me '57 Sedan last year I found one of the rear wheels was loose- when I pulled the cotter pin (yes, it was there) the nut was only finger tight.
Check everything back there! _________________ Aloha,
Tim
January '57 Sedan with April '64 40hp big bore |
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coolbugfan Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2018 Posts: 330
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel |
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Noted. Good Advice. Thank you. |
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VWNate Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2016 Posts: 355 Location: Sunny So. Cal.
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:27 pm Post subject: BE SAFE ! |
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Guess how I learned this ? .
My buddy bought a '67 # 113 at the POmona swap meet and I noticed the right rear castle nut was loose .
I told him : get this fixed straight away, if you can't bring it over and I'll do it .
THREE MONTHS LATER we were tearing up the old road between Bakersfield and Tehachipi when that dang nut fell off into the hub cap, iuckily I was driving and knew to pull over before we flew off the cliff .
Sunday evening, sun down, we lucked out and found a F.L.P.S. just about to close, the only large socket in the store happened to be a 36MM..... _________________ -Nate
One last Beetle : 1959 #113 DeLuxe survivor ~ 36HP & full synchro tranny, 6 volts etc. |
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coolbugfan Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2018 Posts: 330
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Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel UPDATED! |
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THE UPDATE!
Finally had time to deal with the issue yesterday.
I had a new brake drum standing by….
I took out the cotter pin from the castle nut, put a breaker bar on it and tried to undo it.
It was easy. Far too easy.
Gold stars to all who suggested I check the nut first. You were right and I was wrong. It was more than finger tight, but no where close to 250.
So, changed plans and got the torque wrench and tightened the nut to 250 ft lb. I had to slacken it off a TINY bit as 250 meant to nut cover 1/3 of the hole for the pin.
Then decided to jack up the car and see if I could wiggle the wheel. No, I could not. Put the pin back in.
So, is everything good now? Brakes seemed well adjusted before. Wasn’t able to do a long test drive but wheel seems good. Car seems good
Just return unused/unopened drum drum and carry on? Anything else I should be doing on this?
Thanks, Sambas. |
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sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5986 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel UPDATED! |
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coolbugfan wrote: |
So, changed plans and got the torque wrench and tightened the nut to 250 ft lb. I had to slacken it off a TINY bit as 250 meant to nut cover 1/3 of the hole for the pin.
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No! You do not slacken the nut. If the hole does not line up, you INCREASE torque until it does. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31266 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 4:41 pm Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel UPDATED! |
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sjbartnik wrote: |
coolbugfan wrote: |
So, changed plans and got the torque wrench and tightened the nut to 250 ft lb. I had to slacken it off a TINY bit as 250 meant to nut cover 1/3 of the hole for the pin.
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No! You do not slacken the nut. If the hole does not line up, you INCREASE torque until it does. |
This !!! _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 6985 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel UPDATED! |
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The proper torque spec for the rear axle nut on your '65 is 217 ftlbs, so first try torqueing to that spec and see if the cotter pin can be properly installed. If the cotter pin cannot be inserted at that torque, increase the torque until the pin will go but do not exceed 250 ftlbs. If you can't get the cotter pin to install correctly by 250 ftlbs, replace the axle nut or the drum. Next to being rusted in place, the most common reason why rear drums get so badly stuck on the axle they need to be cut off is the nut being massively overtorqued.
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Just return unused/unopened drum drum and carry on? Anything else I should be doing on this? |
I'd still be curious how the drum fits on the axle splines (not torqued down) and how the splines in the drum appear. Are the drum splines worn? Galled? Does the drum fit loosely with a fair amount of wobble on the axle? Is there anything about how the drum fits or appears that gives you reservations about its serviceability? _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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cbeck Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2014 Posts: 2494 Location: high ridge, mo
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Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel UPDATED! |
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If the splines are worn enough to wobble, tightening the nut probably wont resolve the issue for long. _________________ My cut in half and rebuild thread
www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=647779 |
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zerotofifty Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2003 Posts: 1489
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:21 am Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel UPDATED! |
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cbeck wrote: |
If the splines are worn enough to wobble, tightening the nut probably wont resolve the issue for long. |
this
If splines are worn, you will find you will need to tighten it again, and again, and again until there are no splines left. If so, get a new drum.
as for gear oil found leaking, that must be fixed and then you need to clean the brakes and install new shoes.
Just saying, it aint fixed yet. _________________ Give peace a chance. No American war with Russia! |
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VWNate Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2016 Posts: 355 Location: Sunny So. Cal.
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:31 am Post subject: wobbly wheel UPDATE |
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I too think you should look closely at the splines in the old drum to see is they're fretted .
If so change it and junk that worthless drum as it's on it's way to failing the splines whilst driving, resulting in a big tow bill .
If the splines are good , consider the new drum ~ is a good quality German or Mexican product or the same old Chinseium or Brazilian crap ? .
I was well pleased to discover both rear drums on my '59 are the originals (date coded) and better, they've never been turned and won't as long as I own this car .
Good brakes are more than just nice, your LIFE depends on them . _________________ -Nate
One last Beetle : 1959 #113 DeLuxe survivor ~ 36HP & full synchro tranny, 6 volts etc. |
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74 Thing Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004 Posts: 7369
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:44 am Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel UPDATED! |
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You may need a new nut as well. |
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RWK Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2009 Posts: 1337 Location: S.W. MI
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Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 10:14 am Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel UPDATED! |
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X2 on the nut, when loose they wear to a crown shape, (the bearing surface) can be fixed by turning in a lathe _________________ 73 Type 181
63 Type 113
63 Type 261- 428 071
62 Type 241-378 025 178 530 |
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