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wobbly wheel UPDATED!
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coolbugfan
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:15 pm    Post subject: wobbly wheel UPDATED! Reply with quote

My 1965 1200 sedan has been driving nicely, but I did notice a rattle type noise from the back of the car when going over bumps. It sounded like something was loose. Also, after a recent drive, I notice 'dust' on the wheel rim for the rear passenger side wheel. (Stock wheels, easy to see dust on the white paint.)

I wondered if the brakes (drum) needed adjusting, so I jacked up the car. I then noticed some grease had leaked out of the castle nut in the center of the wheel. It was in the rim of the hubcap. It was not a large amount.

But more worryingly, I was able to easily rock the rear wheel in and out (toward and away from the car). The wheel is very tightly bolted to the car and the castle nut still has it's retaining cotter pin, so neither of those are loose.

I'm at a loss as to what is loose or in need of repair/replacement. All I do know, is I don't want to reinact the three-wheeled Herbie scene from The Love Bug!

Help, suggestions and diagnosis appreciated. Thanks, Sambas!

PS: car is stock for suspension and ride height. Recently rebuilt transmission, so lots of new parts in that area of the car.


Last edited by coolbugfan on Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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coolbugfan
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel Reply with quote

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mukluk
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel Reply with quote

coolbugfan wrote:
I then noticed some grease had leaked out of the castle nut in the center of the wheel.

I was able to easily rock the rear wheel in and out (toward and away from the car).

Sounds like the drum is likely worn out where it fits on the splined part of the axle.
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scrivyscriv Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel Reply with quote

I think so too, but I’m surprised the play is in and out, and not radial. It does look like maybe gear oil is getting pumped out around that castle nut though. There shouldn’t be any grease in the rear axle of a swingaxle bug - maybe the splines were greased prior to assembly?
I’d suggest to pull the drum off and check for spline wear on the axle, or more likely, the drum itself; and have a seal kit ready for that wheel bearing as well
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coolbugfan
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:10 am    Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel Reply with quote

So, new brake drum and possibly some seals. Thanks!
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67rustavenger Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:56 am    Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel Reply with quote

coolbugfan wrote:
So, new brake drum and possibly some seals. Thanks!

Pull then wheel assembly and validate what needs repairing/replacing.

It would be sad that you ordered the replacement parts, only to find that you didn't get everything you needed to get it back on the road.
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mukluk
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:13 am    Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel Reply with quote

67rustavenger wrote:
coolbugfan wrote:
So, new brake drum and possibly some seals. Thanks!

Pull then wheel assembly and validate what needs repairing/replacing.

It would be sad that you ordered the replacement parts, only to find that you didn't get everything you needed to get it back on the road.

^^ Thumbs Up x2

Always verify the diagnosis first, then get replacement parts as required.
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VWNate
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:22 am    Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel Reply with quote

The presence of a cotter pin is zero guarantee the castle nut was properly tightened .
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:37 pm    Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel Reply with quote

VWNate wrote:
The presence of a cotter pin is zero guarantee the castle nut was properly tightened .


^^^This^^^
One of the things I've learned to do over the years with any car new to me is to jack it up and check bearings, brakes, suspension, etc. When I did this on my new-to-me '57 Sedan last year I found one of the rear wheels was loose- when I pulled the cotter pin (yes, it was there) the nut was only finger tight. Shocked
Check everything back there!
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coolbugfan
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel Reply with quote

Noted. Good Advice. Thank you.
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VWNate
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:27 pm    Post subject: BE SAFE ! Reply with quote

Guess how I learned this ? .

My buddy bought a '67 # 113 at the POmona swap meet and I noticed the right rear castle nut was loose .

I told him : get this fixed straight away, if you can't bring it over and I'll do it .

THREE MONTHS LATER we were tearing up the old road between Bakersfield and Tehachipi when that dang nut fell off into the hub cap, iuckily I was driving and knew to pull over before we flew off the cliff .

Sunday evening, sun down, we lucked out and found a F.L.P.S. just about to close, the only large socket in the store happened to be a 36MM.....
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coolbugfan
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel UPDATED! Reply with quote

THE UPDATE!

Finally had time to deal with the issue yesterday.

I had a new brake drum standing by….

I took out the cotter pin from the castle nut, put a breaker bar on it and tried to undo it.

It was easy. Far too easy.

Gold stars to all who suggested I check the nut first. You were right and I was wrong. It was more than finger tight, but no where close to 250.

So, changed plans and got the torque wrench and tightened the nut to 250 ft lb. I had to slacken it off a TINY bit as 250 meant to nut cover 1/3 of the hole for the pin.

Then decided to jack up the car and see if I could wiggle the wheel. No, I could not. Put the pin back in.

So, is everything good now? Brakes seemed well adjusted before. Wasn’t able to do a long test drive but wheel seems good. Car seems good

Just return unused/unopened drum drum and carry on? Anything else I should be doing on this?

Thanks, Sambas.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel UPDATED! Reply with quote

coolbugfan wrote:

So, changed plans and got the torque wrench and tightened the nut to 250 ft lb. I had to slacken it off a TINY bit as 250 meant to nut cover 1/3 of the hole for the pin.


No! You do not slacken the nut. If the hole does not line up, you INCREASE torque until it does.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 4:41 pm    Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel UPDATED! Reply with quote

sjbartnik wrote:
coolbugfan wrote:

So, changed plans and got the torque wrench and tightened the nut to 250 ft lb. I had to slacken it off a TINY bit as 250 meant to nut cover 1/3 of the hole for the pin.


No! You do not slacken the nut. If the hole does not line up, you INCREASE torque until it does.


This !!!
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel UPDATED! Reply with quote

The proper torque spec for the rear axle nut on your '65 is 217 ftlbs, so first try torqueing to that spec and see if the cotter pin can be properly installed. If the cotter pin cannot be inserted at that torque, increase the torque until the pin will go but do not exceed 250 ftlbs. If you can't get the cotter pin to install correctly by 250 ftlbs, replace the axle nut or the drum. Next to being rusted in place, the most common reason why rear drums get so badly stuck on the axle they need to be cut off is the nut being massively overtorqued.

Quote:
Just return unused/unopened drum drum and carry on? Anything else I should be doing on this?

I'd still be curious how the drum fits on the axle splines (not torqued down) and how the splines in the drum appear. Are the drum splines worn? Galled? Does the drum fit loosely with a fair amount of wobble on the axle? Is there anything about how the drum fits or appears that gives you reservations about its serviceability?
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cbeck
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel UPDATED! Reply with quote

If the splines are worn enough to wobble, tightening the nut probably wont resolve the issue for long.
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zerotofifty
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel UPDATED! Reply with quote

cbeck wrote:
If the splines are worn enough to wobble, tightening the nut probably wont resolve the issue for long.


this

If splines are worn, you will find you will need to tighten it again, and again, and again until there are no splines left. If so, get a new drum.
as for gear oil found leaking, that must be fixed and then you need to clean the brakes and install new shoes.
Just saying, it aint fixed yet.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:31 am    Post subject: wobbly wheel UPDATE Reply with quote

I too think you should look closely at the splines in the old drum to see is they're fretted .

If so change it and junk that worthless drum as it's on it's way to failing the splines whilst driving, resulting in a big tow bill .

If the splines are good , consider the new drum ~ is a good quality German or Mexican product or the same old Chinseium or Brazilian crap ? .

I was well pleased to discover both rear drums on my '59 are the originals (date coded) and better, they've never been turned and won't as long as I own this car .

Good brakes are more than just nice, your LIFE depends on them .
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74 Thing
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel UPDATED! Reply with quote

You may need a new nut as well.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: wobbly wheel UPDATED! Reply with quote

X2 on the nut, when loose they wear to a crown shape, (the bearing surface) can be fixed by turning in a lathe
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