Hard start relay

[pernest]

Have replaced generator, starter, VR and such and all appear to be working great; however, it seems that my hard start relay might be the only thing that is keeping the Beetle from being a reliable car.

Rewired the relay and double checked all wiring connections. The car would crank great several times but when I moved the hard start wiring bundle aside to make way for the heating tube, it would just click from then on. Wiring juggle; broken connection? The relay is probably at least ten years old and is under the car. So I guess it probably needs replacing.

Wish there was a much simpler way of getting spark to the starter!

[KTPhil]

[pernest]

Any good source on how to get it back to stock?

[KTPhil]

Depending on how hacked they did the relay installation, it may be easy or hard.

Best case: They simply unplugged wires from the solenoid and plugged them into the relay, and added a wire or two. Plug them back in where they belong, and remove the extra wires.
Worst case: They cut wires, changed colors, used shitty aftermarket crimps.

In any case, take time to examine the connectors, make sure they are not corroded, wires aren't broken, connections are tight... which may seem to take a long while on your back with either a factory style crimper or a soldering iron. It will be worth it!

People install these for several reasons, some better than others.
1) They hear it's a good thing, with no idea why.
2) They have loose connections, but instead of repairing the connectors, they make it worse by adding more shitty connections in installing the relay. It improves things... temporarily.
3) They have a rare, unobtainable ignition switch, and want to take the solenoid load off it's contacts, in order to prolong its life. This is a worthwhile case, but it must be done right (factory crimps, relay located under back seat not out in the water, mud, rocks...
Any idea why yours had it installed?

[pernest]

A relay was first installed by a generator shop probably more than 15 years ago. The one I have now is fused for 15 amps — it’s probably relay #2.

It is installed under the car. I believe it will be easier for me to reinstall because the wires are all in place. I will install it under the seat near the battery if I do the relay route.

I don’t have the foggiest idea how to go back to stock. If it’s a fairly simple job, I might do it.

The prior and long retired generator shop owner who initially did the relay might have done it to avoid replacing the ignition switch and wire. I don’t believe he liked working in the confines of small cars. But he was a master generator specialist and is greatly missed in the old car community.

[Cusser]

Arizona. My 1970 and my 1971 have never had hard start relays.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297

[hulbyw]

3) They have a rare, unobtainable ignition switch, and want to take the solenoid load off it's contacts, in order to prolong its life. This is a worthwhile case, but it must be done right (factory crimps, relay located under back seat not out in the water, mud, rocks...

This is why a relay is a great idea, even if you have a common ignition switch. Gives the switch a much easier life. As for underneath the car, mines has been there for 35 years with no problems. Mounted on a bracket bolted to the gearbox. Changed once only because I had the gearbox out and it seemed like a good idea at the time. Zero negatives for me.

[Busstom]

[pernest]

Any good source how to get it back to stock? Seems like there would be three connections — the ignition switch wire to terminal 50, positive battery connection to terminal 30 and a ground wire. Where would you locate the ground on the solenoid/ starter? With the relay, it appears the ground is thru it to the transmission strap?

[KTPhil]

Yes, grounding is through the starter mounting and then the tranny ground strap.

[74 Thing]

https://www.glenn-ring.com/tech/relay_starter.htm

Just remove the relay and wire the car as originally intended.

My question to you is what kind of starter did you buy and was it NEW?

Many of the rebuilt starters only have new brushes and a quick paint job and have a lot of resistance. My starting problems went away when I installed a brand new starter.

[KTPhil]

Is this your relay?:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6948560

Maybe update and use that (10 year old!!!!) thread and close this one, as it seems redundant, and many viewers will miss one or the other.

Where is this relay? Under the back seat, under the car...??? I can't tell from the pic in that thread.

[ashman40]

Before you make any change to the HSR, test the voltage coming from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid. If the voltage drop between the battery and the starter solenoid is more than 1.0v you should probably stick with an HSR. Maybe replace your relay with a new Bosch style SPDT relay from your FLAPS. It shouldn't be more than $10, probably less.

With a VM, test the voltage at the battery terminals. Fully charged, the battery should read 12.6v.
Find the red #50 wire in the main harness that ends below the left rear seat. It is likely one of the wires that connects to your existing relay. Here is a pic of the stock wire (circled).

There was a junction in this wire below the rear seat just before it left the cabin to terminate at the starter solenoid #50 terminal. If you still have this junction point below the rear seat it is an ideal spot to confirm the voltage that makes it to the starter solenoid (It is also an ideal spot to install a new HSR in the car out from the elements). Test the voltage on this red wire when you turn the key to the START position. You should be reading nearly battery voltage. It is a long run from the battery to the ignition switch and then all the way back to the end of this wire below the rear seat. Expect a small voltage loss. 12.0v here under the rear seat would be acceptable. A voltage reading less than this means there is high resistance between the battery and this point. If you are reading much lower voltage here (10.0v is not unheard of with very old wires) it means you won't have enough voltage reaching the starter solenoid to activate the solenoid. If you can clean up the connections between the battery and here and reduce the loss from resistance you could consider getting rid of the HSR.


How to restore the stock starter solenoid #50 circuit:
Assuming you find the voltage provided by the ignition switch is sufficient, find the red #50 wire coming from the ignition switch and identify the end of that wire below the rear seat. This wire needs to be extended to reach the starter solenoid #50 terminal. Is there a thick red wire from this junction below the rear seat passing thru a hole next to the center tunnel? Find the other end of this wire. It normally ends at the starter solenoid but in your case it may end at the HSR. You will need to crawl under the car and look above the transmission next to the right rear tire. Look for the red #50 wire and see where it connects. It may be one of the wires that connects to your HSR. Disconnect this wire from the HSR and connect it to the #50 wire at the starter solenoid. Here is a pic showing the red ignition switch wire connecting to the smaller terminal at the starter solenoid.

Kind of hard to see in the above pic, the battery cable and one red wire connect to the threaded stud on the starter solenoid. This is from the battery positive post. The other threaded stud to the right has a woven cable running between the solenoid and the starter motor. The right red wire does not connect to this threaded stud. The unused male terminal at the bottom of the solenoid is an aux connection used to power devices while the starter is cranking. It is typically left disconnected.
There is a male push on terminal at the top of the solenoid (opposite the unused terminal at the bottom) hidden by this threaded stud. The #50 red wire connects to this terminal.

When the ignition switch is turned to the START position it provides power on the red #50 wire to the #50 terminal of the starter solenoid. This energizes the starter solenoid which will power the starter motor directly from the battery.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[pernest]

So I understand how to hook up #30 and #50 on a stock starter solenoid wiring setup but I’m still in the dark about where on the starter/ solenoid I should attach the ground wire leading to the trans strap? Thanks!

[runamoc]

I use the 'rear seat relay' so I can use smaller gauge wire in my wiring harness. 18 gauge to be exact to the + of the relay coil. Sure takes a load off of the starter contacts in the key switch. I still use the large red wire that used to be for the starter solenoid. But to power only the headlight and running light circuit loads. (#30 wire connection on light switch) The other big red wire #30 goes to power all of the other 'power always on' loads on the fuse panel and gets switched to #15 loads thru the key switch.

_________________
Daily driver: '69 Baja owned 44 yrs - Plan B: '81 Rabbit Diesel LS Deluxe - Plan C: '72 Ghia
Yard Art: 2 Sandrails
Outback: '69 Ghia - '68,'69,'70,'72 Beetle - '84 Scirocco, GTI - Pair of '02 Golfs-
VW Wiring = It's just wires

[pernest]

KTPhil and others:

Wow, I had forgotten all about my having installed the HSR 10 years ago. I think it must have been totally confusing to me then and hopefully a little less so now. Thanks for catching this.

The generator shop must have installed the 1st and custom made HSR some years before I did the installation 10 years ago. Thanks to all who helped me then and now. The Bosch HSR was installed under the car and was exposed to the elements.

I have ordered a new Bosch HSR but would like to try the stock route before going with the relay. Still confused about what to do about the ground when doing stock starter wiring.

Sorry to all but I totally forgot about going thru this 10 years ago. Makes me doubt my sanity!

[runamoc]

[calvinater]

isn't the starter grounded through the mounting bolts at transmission?
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"Albatross"!

[Cusser]

[ashman40]