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Lennert.vw
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Joined: May 12, 2020
Posts: 21
Location: Geel
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 Posted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:45 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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Its been quite a while since someone posted on this thread, but I have been in contact with Mr Frank Jung (Head of the Historic Archive at Porsche). I made a hypotisis about my theory and explained why I think that a certain manufacturer built a which car. I thought my theory was correct but Mr Jung thought otherwise and also explained why. I was asked not to pubslih anything until we are sure on the content of this topic so I am not going to share any info and documents he showed me, but I am going to research this matter again with the new info which he kindly provided me with. I will then redo my hypotisis and send it back to Mr Jung, I'll also ask if I can then share the info we gathered. Mr Jung also added that this is a very difficult topic and that he doubted that he will be able to find much more info. That may not sound very promissing but we shall se what we can find and I will try to come up with a logical story of what may have happend almost 100 years ago.
Have a good summer to all of you and hopefully I will have some new info in the next comming weeks.
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finster
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| Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:00 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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that's intriguing - looking forward to the disclosure 
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allsidius
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Joined: February 02, 2010
Posts: 1481
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:31 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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| Lennert.vw wrote: |
Its been quite a while since someone posted on this thread, but I have been in contact with Mr Frank Jung (Head of the Historic Archive at Porsche). I made a hypotisis about my theory and explained why I think that a certain manufacturer built a which car. I thought my theory was correct but Mr Jung thought otherwise and also explained why. I was asked not to pubslih anything until we are sure on the content of this topic so I am not going to share any info and documents he showed me, but I am going to research this matter again with the new info which he kindly provided me with. I will then redo my hypotisis and send it back to Mr Jung, I'll also ask if I can then share the info we gathered. Mr Jung also added that this is a very difficult topic and that he doubted that he will be able to find much more info. That may not sound very promissing but we shall se what we can find and I will try to come up with a logical story of what may have happend almost 100 years ago.
Have a good summer to all of you and hopefully I will have some new info in the next comming weeks. |
There are so many knowledgeable people in this area, but I think any hypothesis should be let out in the open for testing, even with a Debunked sticker on it. There are a lot of smart people out there that might find the missing link, or the small piece of evidence that debunks any seemingly solid theory.
This thread has shown a lot of development from day one, but I feel that we are getting closer to a better understanding. Maybe it will one day lead to the barn where the "Dirty Car" still resides!
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IIIA-0426
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Joined: March 04, 2009
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Location: Feuerbacherweg 48-50
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 1:23 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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I don’t know how I missed this back in 2021, as I followed the auction house in question closely at the time. They were sold in the Christmas auction of that year. Anyway, I discovered these today and I thought I would share. This remarkable set of photos is captioned:
“1935, mixed lot of 4 original B/W photos with different views of the Volkswagen type 32 prototype with Weinsberg car body, the photos shows the Viennese engineer Oswald Rudolf Fritz with the prototype, who drove this car until the war every day from his residence Löwenstein to the NSU in Neckarsulm, with a proof of ancestry with entries Oswald Rudolf Fritz, unpublished photos, extremely interesting”
Again - still debatable regarding the coachbuilder, but great to see a front view!
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Lennert.vw
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Joined: May 12, 2020
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Location: Geel
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 1:35 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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WOW! These photos show an amazing insight. I am not an expert on coachbuilding but it does look like that car has a leather roof. Maybe its a mixed construction with a wood shell covered with leather, metal skins and metal fenders, like a lot of car back in those days. Maybe this can help determine the coachbuilder?
I am glad that this topic is still active because there still is so much to discover about the type 32.
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IIIA-0426
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 1:44 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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The photos are dated 29 September, 1935 on the back side, with captions of the towns “Wüstenrot” and “Löwensteinerberge”, which are just a few kilometers east of Heilbronn.
Remarkable!
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wagen19
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Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 200
Location: germany
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 2:56 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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| IIIA-0426 wrote: |
The photos are dated 29 September, 1935 on the back side, with captions of the towns “Wüstenrot” and “Löwensteinerberge”, which are just a few kilometers east of Heilbronn.
Remarkable! |
Nice to see that thread coming up again.
Literature, facts:
Zundapp: 3 prototypes
NSU: also 3 prototypes
Info:
Samba: 4 NSU prototypes, or at least one mystery car is around.
Still missing: evidence of the existence of the Weinsberg NSU.
Confusing: pics of a believed 4 th NSU prototype.
Maybe this theory was discussed before, if so, sorry.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=2188719
Porsche started with 3 prototypes for Zundapp. We have pics of one not rolling, unfinished vert. (link above). Imo, the vert looked very old fashioned that time.
As far as I know, Zundapp (Zündapp) and NSU stopped their projects to built cars in the early 30 years. (with Porsche)
The Porsche factory had the rights to keep at least one prototype of these Zundapp and NSU cars.
My theory is, nobody really liked the vert that time and when Zundapp pulled the plug, at least the vert body was left over and ended up at Porsche, Stuttgart.
I suggest the theory, the pic of our "proper NSU" in front of the Drauz factory is a Drauz transformed body, based on the Reutter bodied Zundapp vert. Look at the front and the door line and position of hinges. The tecnic. wheels and brakes look NSU.
At the end of the day, if our "proper NSU" is really a "NSU", not something else, there were 4 NSU´s around. (not going along with NSU info!)
The actual pics of "the proper one" are from Sept 1935. That time NSU already had pulled the plug.
So it can also be, in theory, our "proper one" is a "Porsche factory owned and designed, Drauz built prototype" body, for or a Porsche engine test vehicle, based on left over Zundapp and NSU parts.
Suggest:
1.) Drauz, IIIE 9759, (still existing) (can also be Reutter)
2.) Reutter (or Drauz), IIIE (?) 0503 (0603?), (test plate?), (the dirty one)
3.) Weinsberg, (only drawing known, but no pics, so far unprooved existence)
4.) Our "proper one", IIIE 050x, (body Reutter - Drauz), (the same test plate as on dirty one?)
Last edited by wagen19 on Sun Dec 01, 2024 5:47 am; edited 8 times in total |
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finster
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 3:18 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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always a treat to see new photos of early prototypes. If he drove it until the war, I wonder what became of it...
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allsidius
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Joined: February 02, 2010
Posts: 1481
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 5:01 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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What a find! Thanks for sharing. It is pretty obvious that this is the car that was photographed outside Drauz , with the company logo clearly visible. Whether this car was made by Drauz or one of the others is still up for debate, but it is quite possible.
Finally we have a frontal picture. So amazing. Now if we can only find a full frontal of the Dirty car, we should all be happy..
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IIIA-0426
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Joined: March 04, 2009
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Location: Feuerbacherweg 48-50
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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The photo on page 4 is the only frontal shot we have of the “dirty car”.
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allsidius
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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| IIIA-0426 wrote: |
| The photo on page 4 is the only frontal shot we have of the “dirty car”. |
Yes I know and it bugs me that there isn't a better one available. The Dirty Car was completely different from both the Drauz (assuming the car that just showed up was really built at Drauz) and the Reutter (the one in existence in the VW museum today) looks much sleeker and well designed, it has partially sunken headlights like a Tatra 77 first version. Not buckets like both the others had. And the side profile is lower and more aerodynamic.
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finster
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2024 2:42 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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| allsidius wrote: |
| The Dirty Car was completely different from both the Drauz and the Reutter... it has partially sunken headlights like a Tatra 77 first version. |
maybe any photos were destroyed when ringhoffer/ledwinka claimed plagiarism of tatra designs...?
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allsidius
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| Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2024 3:10 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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| finster wrote: |
| allsidius wrote: |
| The Dirty Car was completely different from both the Drauz and the Reutter... it has partially sunken headlights like a Tatra 77 first version. |
maybe any photos were destroyed when ringhoffer/ledwinka claimed plagiarism of tatra designs...?
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Tatra never claimed this wrt. the NSU typ 32 project. That was just a bogus claim when VW turned out success. And the headlights were never an issue.
The Tatra that has similar headlights to the Dirty car is this, the early T77. . It was actually built AFTER the Dirty car, so I guess Porsche should get their finger out and sue them now.
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wagen19
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Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 200
Location: germany
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| Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2024 3:15 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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| finster wrote: |
| that's intriguing - looking forward to the disclosure |
We have to see, the idea of german "Volkswagen" started around early 20th years, but became a highly important government topic after 30.01.1933.
After Zundapp, NSU and many others had created examples of a little and cheap car, the government took over that ideas and compete theme.
Further on, there was only one official "VOLKSWAGEN" allowed in germany, and F.P. is active for the government only. (concerning any volkswagen project). This decission was made along 1934.
Maybe for F.P. the Zundapp project was official finished in peace, the NSU was still not, but the government also wanted F.P. to create the official volkswagen, but alone.
Concrete, we have the exposè from 17.01.1934 and the contract from 22.06.1934 between F.P. and the RDA. So F.P. had to bring a drivable prototype till April 1935.
A NSU based car was out of discussion, a VW 3 far away from ready, but if the Zundapp project was really finished, the left over vert, now clear and correctly in F.P. ownership, from Drauz along 1934 converted to a good looking limousine, based on the up to now not realized car in weinsberg look, could be planed to be used as first official volkswagen prototype. But at least the front looked too much Zundapp and further on we have heard, the chief liked the Tatra design, combined with an air cooled engine, some sort of flat four "german Tatra". (only my private theory)
On government reasons, NSU had to pull the plug, creating a "volkswagen".
That can be the reason, why there are so few pics and information about Zundapp and NSU cars.
Last edited by wagen19 on Tue Dec 03, 2024 3:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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allsidius
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| Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2024 3:27 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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Although there are some outward similarities between the NSU typ 32 and the first Volkswagens, the fastback body, the flat four and some flutings in the sheet steel, the volkswagen project was started more or less from scratch. It would be considerably more compact and efficiently packed, the engine would be less than 1 litre and so on. The NSU was more of a medium class car that would have sold for 2-3000 RM at least. But starting a car company from scratch requires incredibly large investment, both in prototyping and manufacturing facilities, the project never got close to production.
Much of the engineering of the Volkswagen went into production methods and tools, how to produce the most advanced small car with as few parts and in the shortest time possible. Just look at those pictures of the chassis stampings, so delicately designed for minimum weight and quick production.
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wagen19
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Posts: 200
Location: germany
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| Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2024 5:12 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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| allsidius wrote: |
Although there are some outward similarities between the NSU typ 32 and the first Volkswagens, the fastback body, the flat four and some flutings in the sheet steel, the volkswagen project was started more or less from scratch. It would be considerably more compact and efficiently packed, the engine would be less than 1 litre and so on. The NSU was more of a medium class car that would have sold for 2-3000 RM at least. But starting a car company from scratch requires incredibly large investment, both in prototyping and manufacturing facilities, the project never got close to production.
Much of the engineering of the Volkswagen went into production methods and tools, how to produce the most advanced small car with as few parts and in the shortest time possible. Just look at those pictures of the chassis stampings, so delicately designed for minimum weight and quick production. |
We may not forget, Zundapp an NSU already produced some cars and lorries, before and after 1931-34. They did not start from scratch along 1931 to 1934. Both were no beginners. Imo, there are many lies around.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z%C3%BCndapp
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSU_Motorenwerke
Not sure for now, wether the mystery car is made and payed for, from Zundapp, NSU, F.P.
All parts and scetches can be mixed up at Stuttgart after late 1934. (individual private theory only) |
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allsidius
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wagen19
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Location: germany
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2024 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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| allsidius wrote: |
I know they had made cars before, but the Porsche projects were something new to them, requiring substantial investment.
Bad wording is not a lie. It is a mistake. There is a difference. |
For me, it makes no sense, that after the contract of F.P. with the RDA on 22.06.1934, F.P. kept their order for NSU forwards. In fact, the NSU was nearly the same size as the "government-volkswagen" and therefor caused a conflict situation with RDA, government and NSU.
NSU flat four engine 1500 ccm:
On one hand it´s said, Kales had this engine due to many major structural problems written of.
On the other hand, if it was a good success, as also was heard about all of the whole type 32, why not create a 1000 ccm down sized version for the type 60 V1 and V2...?
But look at the power, performance and top speed of the Type 32. Rather dissapointing, I think.
In 1934 for the "RDA-government-volkswagen" F.P. really wanted more a kind of a 2-stroke motorcycle engine, I think, or at least a 2 cylinder 4-stroke engine and no way a "flat four aircraft like engine" for the volkswagen.
That opinion had to be changed, after many versions of more or less desasterous ending A, B, C, D-engines were built and tested on autobahn hill up and down.
AND shortly after F.X. Reimspiess arrived at F.P. at 24.09.1934. He was the new and "fresh man", the new force, who turned the wheel and brought with his new flat 4 engine the whole team finally on the street of success and gave us "our" beloved early flat 4 volkswagen and 356 engines. Surprisingly calculator Kux gave his green light too. |
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KTPhil 
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2024 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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Since this is said to be the only photo of the front, I clipped it and did a little adjustment to make it somewhat clearer.
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wagen19
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2024 12:48 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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Since this is said to be the only photo of the front, I clipped it and did a little adjustment to make it somewhat clearer.
[/quote]
Thanks for that.
NSU windscreen: it´s said, one NSU had a curved panorama windscreen, rounded going to the roof. (dirty car).
The lower area of dirty cars screen seems to be straight and different to the mysterys car, but the upper area can be the same style, I think.
Curved car glass, that time was a interesting and aerodynamic feature and interesting challenge.
Who knows or sees more?
By the way, is the date known when pic of the mystery car in front of the Drauz factory was made? |
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