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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 22465
Location: Oklahoma City
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 Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| airschooled wrote: |
Every VW bus manual clearly states hypoid oil is to be used in bus transaxles. The owners manual even puts hypoid in bold.
Robbie |
Of course they do. Hypoid final drive gear have been around for a long time. And, at one point in time, the "hypoid" oil that was available was GL-4 and probably even GL-3 before that.
Oils made for ACTUAL hypoid gearing were more than enough for standard skew bevel gearing (like the bus and type 1 have).
Just keep in mind that you do not actually HAVE a hypoid final drive gear set in the bus.
As more modern vehicles began using hypoid final drives with more extreme spiral to the bevel gears and tighter tolerances...they upped the EP additives to reduce friction in hypoid drives.
The problem with this discussion is that virtually all GL-4 and GL-5 gear oils have ALWAYS been listed as "for hypoid gears".
In the beginning (GL-5 spec's were laid down in 1960) ....there were not a lot of differences between oils that had GL-4 and GL-5 rating.
There are NOW....so you can't just run out buy any oil that says "hypoid gears" on it.
What you are getting at have long been an issue for me in my type 4 cars. They list "must use hypoid gear oil". Some of the old books (there is no Bentley for type 4)....literally show a picture of Castrol Hypoy-C....which only comes in 80/90 and which is GL-5....which makes sense for the final drive...which is "hypoid" gearing.
But....I am starting to find out from looking at some of the other Euro books...that they really meant Castrol EP 90 which is a GL-4 straight weight.
And...if you look at the listing for Castrol Classic EP-90....you see:
| Quote: |
Classic EP 90 is recommended for the lubrication of conventional spiral bevel final drives and mild hypoid axles where
API GL-4 oils are recommended. It may also be used to lubricate spur and helical gears and for other applications
where the manufacturer specifies the use of an oil meeting API GL-4. It should not be used in high off-set hypoid axles
where API GL-5 oils are typically recommended or in axles with limited slip differentials. |
https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/F...A6GHZN.pdf
That section in red....is important...and why the type 4 manual 004 transmission gets away with GL-4. The hypoid offset in the type 4 is "moderate". there is no offset in the 002 and 091. Its not hypoid.
But....more modern vehciles have a very high hypoid offset to the ring and pinion which creates HUGE friction.
Ray
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41289
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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Transworks, Rick Long and Big Bore all said the same thing. The slippery crap in GL5 can cause permanent shifting issues that can only be fixed by replacing the damaged synchro gears. The synchros most prone to it are the ones with a moly coating. My trans has all 4 synchos with moly on them. Some buses have moly on 1st. Some have moly on 1st and 2nd, and some have moly on all four. I decided not to roll the dice and just look at the label to be sure it said GL4 on it. I doubt if synthetic or non-synthetic GL4 will be an issue - however GL4 is an older gear oil and it does not get sold as often so it can be harder to find. Napa sells Stalube GL4. Amazon sells Liqui Moly GL4. Driven lists a GL4 thru Summit. Napa also sells a synthetic gear oil that says GL5 and GL4 THEN IN FINE PRINT and non-synchronized manual transmissions where GL-4 is recommended. Our transmissions are synchronized so that one might not work - the point being, read the label before you use it or you may end up rebuilding your transmission, or learning to shift a gearbox with failed synchronizers.
The spec sheet on Swepco 201 is GL5 and MT. Those transmissions are like the Borg Warner T4 and T5, they take a special fluid that is designed for a different kind of transmission. Swepco does not make a GL4 gear oil. That said, some Porsche owners and Vanagon owners use Swepco 201. There are 70 pages of discussion on this at https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
The issue again is that the people who rebuild bus transmissions will tell you do not use GL5 in a bus transaxle with moly synchros. They all say they have been burned by clients who did that and destroyed the moly synchros, resulting in either free rebuilds to correct a client caused problem, or a pissed off client when they have to pay to fix it in a transmission that might be only months old. Mike (Big Bore) told me that he had one client who ignored him and changed the gear oil to GL5 thinking it would be better, and even after 3 gear oil changes and flushes it would not shift right. The client had to pay for a rebuild a second time because the synchros were too slippery. I don't understand it, I am not a chemist. However there are things, like putting silicone on paint for example, that sink in and cause changes that make it near impossible to repaint with the new paint failing to adhere properly. I suspect it is something like that. But this is a free country and do as you please. VW was inconsistent in how many moly coated synchro rings they used in our buses. Moly or not depended what they had on the shelf when they were building the transmission. It is not a year by year thing - so one person may have no problems at all, and another may be very unhappy when they get the bill to rebuild their trans. We are all adults and can make our own decisions what risk we want to take.
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Last edited by SGKent on Wed Dec 04, 2024 4:11 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 22465
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| SGKent wrote: |
Transworks, Rick Long and Big Bore all said the same thing. The slippery crap in GL5 can cause permanent shifting issues that can only be fixed by replacing the damaged synchro gears. The synchros most prone to it are the ones with a moly coating. My trans has all 4 synchos with moly on them. Some buses have moly on 1st. Some have moly on 1st and 2nd, and some have moly on all four. I decided not to roll the dice and just look at the label to be sure it said GL4 on it. I doubt if synthetic or non-synthetic GL4 will be an issue - however GL4 is an older gear oil and it does not get sold as often so it can be harder to find. Napa sells Stalube GL4. Amazon sells Liqui Moly GL4. Driven lists a GL4 thru Summit. Napa also sells a synthetic gear oil that says GL5 and GL4 THEN IN FINE PRINT and non-synchronized manual transmissions where GL-4 is recommended. Our transmissions are synchronized so that one might not work - the point being, read the label before you use it or you may end up rebuilding your transmission, or learning to shift a gearbox with failed synchronizers.
The spec sheet on Swepco 201 is GL5 and MT. Those transmissions are like the Borg Warner T4 and T5, they take a special fluid that is designed for a different kind of transmission. Swepco does not make a GL4 gear oil. That said, some Porsche owners and Vanagon owners use Swepco 201. There are 70 pages of discussion on this at https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
The issue again is that the people who rebuild bus transmissions will tell you do not use GL5 in a bus transaxle with moly synchros. They all say they have been burned by clients who did that and destroyed the moly synchros, resulting in either free rebuilds to correct a client caused problem, or a pissed off client when they have to pay to fix it in a transmission that might be only months old. Mike (Big Bore) told me that he had one client who did it, and even after 3 gear old changes and flushes it would not shift right. The client had to pay for a rebuild a second time. |
Yep....it seems like GL-4 is starting to become a specialty oil with average pricing running to $20+ a quart....simply because of lower availability.
Ray |
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HarryFD
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Joined: February 24, 2012
Posts: 828
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 4:24 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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FWIW, my transmission rebuilder required me to use BG ULTRA-GUARD to not invalidate my warranty on my rebuilt 091 Transmission.
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1973.5 911 Targa
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70bus
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2004
Posts: 992
Location: P.O.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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Now you all have me worried. LOL
So the 70 has had Red Line MT-90 in it since 1998 or so and seems fine; haven't changed it since then as it got parked for a while and then was secondary use so low mileage. It should be the old formula MT-90 which the guy who buit it liked. I should change now due to age but gotta find a good replacement.
The 65 has 400 miles on this Lucas oil, since it was all I could find locally. Tell me if I should drain immediately and cross fingers I didn't toast a new trans!
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Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams
Raul the 65 singlecab
Karl the 70 nine-seater |
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cdennisg
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Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20643
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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I have the Lucas 75W-90 and it clearly states on the bottle "the perfect hypoid gear oil". I bought a partial case (cheap on FB marketplace) and have only used it in my Toyota 5 spd so far. Will be using it in a Chevy truck soon. Might go in a baja trans this winter if needed.
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 51583
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| I have the Lucas 75W-90 and it clearly states on the bottle "the perfect hypoid gear oil". I bought a partial case (cheap on FB marketplace) and have only used it in my Toyota 5 spd so far. Will be using it in a Chevy truck soon. Might go in a baja trans this winter if needed. |
The problem one is left with is that the bottle nowhere says it is designed to work with synchronizers, and also that it also is rated MT-1 which implies it may not do well with synchronizers. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 22465
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 9:36 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| I have the Lucas 75W-90 and it clearly states on the bottle "the perfect hypoid gear oil". I bought a partial case (cheap on FB marketplace) and have only used it in my Toyota 5 spd so far. Will be using it in a Chevy truck soon. Might go in a baja trans this winter if needed. |
The problem one is left with is that the bottle nowhere says it is designed to work with synchronizers, and also that it also is rated MT-1 which implies it may not do well with synchronizers. |
I know you know this....but some people do not.
More modern manual transmissions (whether the final drive is in the transfer case or not)...not saying super modern but say late 70's and 80's and onward....had synchronizers as well...but they are made of steel or sintered iron.....not brass or bronze.
Its one of those little details that can confuse some people. It did confuse me for a while because many forum conversations stated that GL-5 is not for transmissions with syncros. Thats not quite true. Its not for brass or bronze synchros.
Ray |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20643
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| I have the Lucas 75W-90 and it clearly states on the bottle "the perfect hypoid gear oil". I bought a partial case (cheap on FB marketplace) and have only used it in my Toyota 5 spd so far. Will be using it in a Chevy truck soon. Might go in a baja trans this winter if needed. |
The problem one is left with is that the bottle nowhere says it is designed to work with synchronizers, and also that it also is rated MT-1 which implies it may not do well with synchronizers. |
Might have to contact Lucas directly and ask them about this...
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70bus
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2004
Posts: 992
Location: P.O.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 9:46 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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The bottles I bought say this in the product data sheet:
| Quote: |
Lucas Oil SAE 80W-90 Gear Oil is a premium lubricant specially formulated for final drives, axles, and differentials in passenger cars and heavy-duty equipment. It is formulated with powerful anti-wear and extreme pressure additives to prevent scuffing and premature failure of all gear types in the most demanding service conditions. Our specialty formulation is yellow metal safe, and clings to gear teeth to ensure they are never starved for lubrication. Our formulation is shear stable and will retain viscosity for long fluid life and maximum protection. Lucas Oil SAE 80W-90 Gear Oil is stable under high-torque and high temperature conditions but remains fluid at extremely cold temperatures to ensure excellent lubrication no matter the weather. It is fortified with seal conditioners that keep seals supple, preventing leaks and extending service life. Our formulation contains an embedded friction modifier for use in standard or limited slip differentials.
Recommended by Lucas Oil for any application requiring SAE 80W-90 gear oil, whether in light duty trucks, SUVs, or commercial vehicles. Meets or exceeds API GL-5, MT-1, and other common gear oil specifications. |
Big bottle labels:
| Quote: |
Excellent for use in race cars,
trucks, RV's, hypoid gears or
any situation
where plain gear
oil just isn't good
enough.
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I bolded the yellow-metals line; hopefully this means I have at least not ruined my trans, even if maybe this isn't the best oil for our buses.
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Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams
Raul the 65 singlecab
Karl the 70 nine-seater |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 51583
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| I have the Lucas 75W-90 and it clearly states on the bottle "the perfect hypoid gear oil". I bought a partial case (cheap on FB marketplace) and have only used it in my Toyota 5 spd so far. Will be using it in a Chevy truck soon. Might go in a baja trans this winter if needed. |
The problem one is left with is that the bottle nowhere says it is designed to work with synchronizers, and also that it also is rated MT-1 which implies it may not do well with synchronizers. |
I know you know this....but some people do not.
More modern manual transmissions (whether the final drive is in the transfer case or not)...not saying super modern but say late 70's and 80's and onward....had synchronizers as well...but they are made of steel or sintered iron.....not brass or bronze.
Its one of those little details that can confuse some people. It did confuse me for a while because many forum conversations stated that GL-5 is not for transmissions with syncros. Thats not quite true. Its not for brass or bronze synchros.
Ray |
My experience is that if you put a typical GL-5 oil into one of these transmissions and drive it around the block the damage is done. Don't really know why, but I doubt that it is due to corrosion, but maybe something the GL-5 does to the coated synchronizers. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 22465
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2024 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
| I have the Lucas 75W-90 and it clearly states on the bottle "the perfect hypoid gear oil". I bought a partial case (cheap on FB marketplace) and have only used it in my Toyota 5 spd so far. Will be using it in a Chevy truck soon. Might go in a baja trans this winter if needed. |
The problem one is left with is that the bottle nowhere says it is designed to work with synchronizers, and also that it also is rated MT-1 which implies it may not do well with synchronizers. |
I know you know this....but some people do not.
More modern manual transmissions (whether the final drive is in the transfer case or not)...not saying super modern but say late 70's and 80's and onward....had synchronizers as well...but they are made of steel or sintered iron.....not brass or bronze.
Its one of those little details that can confuse some people. It did confuse me for a while because many forum conversations stated that GL-5 is not for transmissions with syncros. Thats not quite true. Its not for brass or bronze synchros.
Ray |
My experience is that if you put a typical GL-5 oil into one of these transmissions and drive it around the block the damage is done. Don't really know why, but I doubt that it is due to corrosion, but maybe something the GL-5 does to the coated synchronizers. |
There are several effects.
And yes, one of the long term issues IS corrosion....but its also why when I first started hearing about the "degradation" issue.....not YET hearing about the slipping issue (lack of functioning synchronization) ....I originally "assumed" it was the chemical etching or corrosion issue.
I can totally understand the instant destruction (function wise) of moly coated synchros. My particular ACVW cars have never had moly coated synchros so I never knew it was a problem caused by using the wrong oil....so I never made THAT correlation.
Molybdenum disulfide is a porous coating....it's a lubricant. From everything I have read and heard, the stoppage of function is slippage. One of the friction modifiers in the GL-5 gets into the coated surface and stays there.
What I am not sure of yet....is whether it gets into the pores of the moly and cannot get out or whether it electrolytically bonds to the moly and cannot be stripped off.
If you look up what the primary DIFFERENT friction modifiers is in GL-5 oil vs GL-4....the most common answer is polar sulfur. There are others but sulfur is the main DIFFERENCE.
If you do a little searching about what reacts/breaks down molybdenum disulfide.....at room temp....it reacts with sulfuric acid. This is produced as sulfur breaks down in the presence of water.....but totally agree....that's a LONG TERM issue in oils and gear oils.
However at higher temperatures .....high concentrations of sulfates....will corrode molybdenum. Not yet sure about "molybdenum disulfide".
The other issue is that I have heard plenty about short term damage to the actual brass synchros. Not just slipping.
Question is....are they speaking of/describing damage from grinding/clashing when the synchros start to slip? (Mechanical damage).....or something else.
On the other end....again....a long term issue.....sulfuric acid produced by sulfur breaking down straps the zinc out of brass, exposing the softer copper.....which will produce rapid wear.
Lots of potential things at play here just by choosing the wrong oil. Ray |
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richparker
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20643
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2024 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| richparker wrote: |
| So what’s the reasonably priced gear oil of choice? |
It's been awhile since I bought some, but the Sta-Lube GL-4 at NAPA was reasonably priced and fit the bill.
EDIT: just searched, and it appears to have been discontinued.
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metahacker
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Joined: May 26, 2010
Posts: 767
Location: san.diego
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2024 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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Kendall NS-MP is less than 1/2 the price of Swepco and is a favorite for a lot of picky people (who know what they are doing) with expensive gear boxes (Vanagon Syncro, Porsche 915)... and yes i know it has a clutch pack LSD FM additive....maybe that also helps with the old skool syncros? i dont know.
another cheaper option, Valvoline 80W90 GL5 also comes up in those circles as suitable and "yellow metal" syncro safe .. i believe they like a specific variant .. but one thats sold at FLAPS .. i can say, anecdotally, FLAPS Valvoline "Syncromesh" seemed really good in a high mileage early Vanagon (091) gear box .... but cant say more than that for direct experiences
this thread had me go back and talk to a couple big shot gear box people
and the 3 i keep hearing are the Swepco (201 vs 210 vs 203 seems to be a subject of differing opinions...210 seems like it may be better than 201 overall, although the old lore was 201 for street 210 for track...and some are "against" / and some "for" the 203 with the Moly added), Kendall NS-MP and BG Ultra-Guard
the BG is getting really high marks from some guys and it's the standard fill from GTA, who definitely knows how to build a Bus box as well as (/better) anyone, and the dealer for all of Paul Guard's amazing 091 parts.... i think it is also the only full synthetic of the lot, i believe...? I don't believe the NS-MP is synthetic... pretty curious....has me wanting to break in a box on 201 and then try the BG and see |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41289
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2024 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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checking prices today for you, From Amazon, 4 quarts of Penn Grade1 GL-4 (that is the BradPenn oil but the name changed) is $30 for 4 quarts. 80W -90. https://www.amazon.com/PENN-GRADE-77296-Classic-Mu...0&th=1
I could not find any GL-4 less expensive than that, and the Sta-Lube gallon is up to $80. Other brands are $15 to $25 per quart. Buses are supposed to take 3.7 quarts. I did find one article where someone noted that Mazda went from originally GL-5 to recommending GL-4 in their sports cars about 15 years ago. Their current recommendations say that if Mazda gear oil is not available use GL-4 and not GL-5. Wiki says that gear oils are NOT backwards compatible like engine oils. They each have specific uses. GL-5 was around when the late bays were made, and VW was specifying GL-4 in the owner's manuals.
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70bus
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Joined: July 15, 2004
Posts: 992
Location: P.O.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2024 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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NAPA has gallons of Sta-Lube GL-4, and for the next day or so has a 20% coupon. I ordered two gals and will use them next trans oil changes. Hopefully will not need to buy more in my lifetime!
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Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams
Raul the 65 singlecab
Karl the 70 nine-seater |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20643
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2024 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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| 70bus wrote: |
| NAPA has gallons of Sta-Lube GL-4, and for the next day or so has a 20% coupon. I ordered two gals and will use them next trans oil changes. Hopefully will not need to buy more in my lifetime! |
Just checked my NAPA. GL-4 Sta Lube SAE 90 is $80 per gallon!
The NAPA branded 80W-90 gear oil states API service GL-4 and 5 for differentials and API service GL-5 for non-syncro manual transmission. The description text clearly states it is for hypoid differentials requiring GL-4 or 5. It also costs about half of Sta-Lube.
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70bus
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Joined: July 15, 2004
Posts: 992
Location: P.O.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2024 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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With the sale, I picked up 2 gals at 60@. That made the GL4/5 quarts only $5 cheaper than something with proven performance and brass safety. That Lucas GL4/5 I had put in may indeed be safe for my yellow metals, as might be the NAPA-branded, but now that I have the 'correct' fluid I don't need to worry about it any more.
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Craig K
70 Neunsitzer
65 Pritschenwagen
"If Von Dutch was alive, he'd walk in there with a pistol and shoot these people." - Robert Williams
Raul the 65 singlecab
Karl the 70 nine-seater |
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Nicholas D
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Joined: November 06, 2012
Posts: 260
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2024 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Manual gear oil. |
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So you all are fine with the Sta Lube GL-4 SAE 90 straight weight?
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/SL_SL24239
Sorry, just can't let this thread die.
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