Torque wrench myths

[Glenn]

I found this interesting.


Link



Link

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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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[richparker]

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[Cusser]

That's a lot of information, not sure that will affect me personally.

I have an old 3/8 beam-type torque wrench that I've used to build several engines. But now I have 4 different click-type torque wrenches from Harbor Freight (3 sizes) that I use. I set those back to zero because they fit in their cases properly that way !!!

When I rebuilt my latest VW engine (2016-2017) I got the loaner 1/2" drive torque wrench from O-Reilly as that went to 250 ft lbs, and used that for my gland nut (and also when I did the rear brakes). But since then Mrs. Cusser got me a Torque Buddy Tool but I haven't yet had need to use that.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297

[Dale M.]

Interesting ....
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“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns"
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[Zed999]

Interesting for re-checking your heads where the top 4 are always dry and the bottom 4 oily.
Looks like oily results in way to much torque?
How to get around that I wonder?
Also people use sealant on the bottom 4 but it's pointless on the top 4.
Both cases are going to produce tighter bottom bolts.
You could oil the top ones but then apparently they'll all be too tight, perhaps much too tight.
Damn!

[modok]

You didn't oil them? well whatever
Sealant can be a lube.
so lets say you use loctite 565 on all the head studs

What's the downside now?

Probably should drop torque 10%, as this teflon/acrylic stuff is slippery

[VW_Jimbo]

Nice information! Guess I am getting a torque measuring device to check shit out for awhile! Better to know than to guess!
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Jimbo

There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!

[Zed999]

[modok]

The friction is the variable here, so you reduce the friction, you should reduce the variation.
Perhaps torque test channel already has a vid on that, I doubt they would discover anything different than what's already known.

Dry, friction tends to increase with repeated use, because the threads are wearing.
Lubed with heavy oil, friction decreases through the first several torque cycles, then stabilizes.
ARP lube gives more friction than oil, but the friction is far more consistent from the first cycle, which is...the point of it.

Zinc plated hardware, the friction is very low for the first few torque cycles, then increases as the plating wears through.

And that can be better or worse depending on the materials and the pitch of the thread. With higher loading and finer pitches things get worse.


These days I just work with whatever is there if it's good enough, or, throw it away and get real hardware.
Most engines all the major fasteners are INSIDE so you just oil them unless told not to.
With the VW engine half the major bolts are outside the case, so not a clear answer about what you should be doing with your zinc plated locknuts
The popularity of the zinc plating is really nice for most things, but bad for painting and getting consistent torque. Nice having a hot tank, overnight soak in the caustic tank will remove the zinc plating nicely.

[raygreenwood]

[modok]

Just a side note: anti-sieze is abrasive, don't let any get inside the engine.

[Dale M.]

Posted along time ago, but again....

_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns"
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[esde]

I think one of the considerations that I see, is how much torque variation could occur because many of use are using old hardware, some of which was pretty gnarly when last assembled as a core engine. If having a lubed thread can change torque value so much, then imagine what having a burr, rust or dirt on the threads can do. I know some of you will inspect every thread, but many don't. It makes a difference. Remember we are building with 50+ year old hardware.
I was helping someone with a little diesel cylinder head, and he had piles of filthy hardware. I told him to get it all rinsed, wiped, and laid out before we went any further. Use a little bore brush on nuts when you can.
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modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that.

[rayjay]

How could we devise a stretch gauge for head studs?

[oprn]

The only surprise there for me was the lubed torque values. Double?! Wow! That means I have been over torqueing VW heads for 55 years!

...and yet not one failure even though they have all (with the exception of the last one) been stock magnesium cases without case savers... Huh! Go figure!

Mind you I have never had a head to barrel combustion leak either. There's that!
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Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old!

[modok]

No, you haven't been over torquing them.

"screwing the hole dry" is just as stupid as it ever was.
Some kind of revised history these new goofs are pushing.

[oprn]

Oh, I won't be changing my habits anytime soon! I have seen far too many galled up, messed up, worn out threads in my day from them being run on dry.

I might consider backing down a bit on torque perhaps but by 50%?! Not a chance that is real!
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Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old!

[modok]

I'm gonna rant further on this, Just because I feel like it.
Paradigms change. The state of the world changes.
There was a time when locking up the brakes was the fastest way to stop your car, yes it puts flat spots on the tires, but that's how it was, and everybody knew that....at the time.

Then next came an era where "threshold braking" was faster than locking the wheels.
Then recently, in the past 5-10 years, now ABS systems can stop quicker than threshold braking.

One might THINK people were ignorant, but no, that's how it was. They knew how use science, they did tests. It was true.

How did manufacturers prevent the plain steel hardware from rusting in the past? Coat it with oil. Fasteners came with oil already on them.
Was it necessary to degrease the hardware before use? no
OK so what if it was OLD (5-10 years old LOL) hardware. Then it would be cleaned with Stoddard solvent, aka white spirits, aka mineral spirits, which usually contaminated with 10-30% oil anyway.

Mechanics in 1970 didn't have a way to fully degrease parts anyway, and, they didn't need one, rather the main problem was the opposite...rust.
Rust was blamed on a lack of lubrication.
Engine seals of the time were not adequate to COMPLETELY seal anything, leaking/burning a quart per thousand miles was acceptable. Engines were oiley, mechanics were oily, the road was oily, people thought the oil helped keep the dust down on the 30-50% of roads that weren't paved yet.

At the time OUR "manual" was written, half the kids had learned that fasteners need to be oiled........... before they learned to read, so there was no reason to state this in the manual.
These days, the kids have stupid questions like.... do I need a new starter gasket? Is there a gasket that goes between the engine and transmission? What's a torque converter? Stupid questions or valid questions, DEPENDING on your frame of reference, your own assumptions.
In order to read a manual written for mechanics in 1970, You have to understand what the paradigm was for a mechanic in 1970

You want to use plain steel bolts DRY? that's just as STUPID TODAY AS IT EVER WAS. NOT MY OPINION, it's PROVEN, and you can reprove it if you want, FEEL FREE.

Even wood screws today are lubricated by a plating or coating, as you buy them from the store.
If you do HAVE or can create bare steel wood screws..... then they will work better with oil. It's true try it.
Yes wood screws work better with oil.
And if they weren't coated then they would come already oiled.
Otherwise they would rust.
Is this difficult to understand?
Is this news to you?
WOW
ANd it's just because you never thought about it.

[chrisflstf]

My father taught me as a kid, when putting a screw in wood, to rub the screw on a bar of
soap on it. Makes it alot easier. Still remember that day!

[Wreck]

soap , candle wax works as well .

Funny there are always exceptions to rules . You stop quicker on dirt/unpaved roads by locking up . The tyre digs in and starts to plough the road .
Proved first hand on a 4wd driving course .