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pastellgreen
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2012
Posts: 1095
Location: Germany
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 Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 11:26 am Post subject: Re: need help understanding what a hard start relay helps |
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| schwim wrote: |
| pastellgreen wrote: |
Yes.
But I can vote for WW harnesses, as they are good quality and help improving the light as well the starting issues, together with the whole contact cleaning procedures... |
I ordered the 6v relay kit from WW. What do you mean by "improving the light"? |
Improving the harness and cleaning contacts from the fuse box, switches and ports does improve the lights and starting.
Of course you can put in the relay, but this only heals the symptoms and not the cause.
During the last 20 years I had 5 stock beetles with 6V systems as daily driver and never had any issues. After the restoration of a split beetle with a complete new harness (John Henry) and restored head lights, the lights were brighter than from any 12V beetle from the beetle club Wolfsburg.
My current 6V beetle only has a new front harness and fusebox from WW, because the old ones were hacked. The lights and starter have improved since. Before, I had a similar situation with starting as you. Additionally, I cleaned the connection of both ground straps (Battery and trans - body) and put in a new cable from battery to starter, because there was a main switch added retrospectively, that failed.
I never considered using a relay instead. |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3481
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 11:42 am Post subject: Re: need help understanding what a hard start relay helps |
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| EVfun wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| wdfifteen wrote: |
| I've seen a lot of people put in "hard start" relays when what they really needed is a new starter bushing or to clean the battery terminals. As has been stated, the only advantage is to take some of the current load off of the ignition switch. |
Can also be the voltage drop between the key switch and the solenoid.
But the answer to the question what a hard start relay helps is; It helps to mask a problem that should have been done correctly. |
You know we are driving old economy cars. Perhaps it was just VWs saving a buck a car by not using large enough wires, or start switch contacts capable of handling the potential inrush current of a starter solenoid. This is the same company that didn't fuse the ignition coil circuit despite the circuit path running from the back of the car to the front of the car, and then back to the back of the car to the coil. They didn't fuse the headlight high beams until 1960 or the front parking lights on US models until at least 1966. They couldn't even be bothered to include a fuseable link.
Let me tell you a little story about another economy car, the Geo Metro (rebadged Suzuki). They ran the headlight wiring up the steering columm and through that switch on the stalk. It didn't drive headlight relays -- the full current of the headlights ran through the approximately 18 gauge wires and the 3mm spade terminals. It worked for them because it lasted longer than 3 years. But at 4 years you notice the headlights are little dim. Not wanting to dig too far I didn't find a problem. At about 6 years and 90k miles the headlights suddenly went out. I opened up the fuse box and steering column to chase the headlight wiring and found the blackened connections. I cleaned them all up the best I could and used them to run headlight relays. The headlights were brighter than when new, and they didn't dim again. |
I have a 65, 111 1200"A" that I've owned 55 years, and a 64 113 for 50 years. I also was working for a VW dealer as a line mechanic/later a unit repair mechanic 53 years ago. I can tell you this voltage drop thing/starter inop. thing was happening even when the cars were relatively new as well. We were never allowed to install a hard start relay at the dealer I worked at. Our service manager (from the old country) called the relay repair a Band-Aid approach. Some people outside our dealer were at that time were using K/G horn relays, but if wone of us tech was ever found going that we would have been looking for a new job. |
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EVfun 
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5854
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: need help understanding what a hard start relay helps |
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| Helfen wrote: |
| EVfun wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| wdfifteen wrote: |
| I've seen a lot of people put in "hard start" relays when what they really needed is a new starter bushing or to clean the battery terminals. As has been stated, the only advantage is to take some of the current load off of the ignition switch. |
Can also be the voltage drop between the key switch and the solenoid.
But the answer to the question what a hard start relay helps is; It helps to mask a problem that should have been done correctly. |
You know we are driving old economy cars. Perhaps it was just VWs saving a buck a car by not using large enough wires, or start switch contacts capable of handling the potential inrush current of a starter solenoid. This is the same company that didn't fuse the ignition coil circuit despite the circuit path running from the back of the car to the front of the car, and then back to the back of the car to the coil. They didn't fuse the headlight high beams until 1960 or the front parking lights on US models until at least 1966. They couldn't even be bothered to include a fuseable link.
Let me tell you a little story about another economy car, the Geo Metro (rebadged Suzuki). They ran the headlight wiring up the steering columm and through that switch on the stalk. It didn't drive headlight relays -- the full current of the headlights ran through the approximately 18 gauge wires and the 3mm spade terminals. It worked for them because it lasted longer than 3 years. But at 4 years you notice the headlights are little dim. Not wanting to dig too far I didn't find a problem. At about 6 years and 90k miles the headlights suddenly went out. I opened up the fuse box and steering column to chase the headlight wiring and found the blackened connections. I cleaned them all up the best I could and used them to run headlight relays. The headlights were brighter than when new, and they didn't dim again. |
I have a 65, 111 1200"A" that I've owned 55 years, and a 64 113 for 50 years. I also was working for a VW dealer as a line mechanic/later a unit repair mechanic 53 years ago. I can tell you this voltage drop thing/starter inop. thing was happening even when the cars were relatively new as well. We were never allowed to install a hard start relay at the dealer I worked at. Our service manager (from the old country) called the relay repair a Band-Aid approach. Some people outside our dealer were at that time were using K/G horn relays, but if wone of us tech was ever found going that we would have been looking for a new job. |
This starter solenoid issues "was happening even when the cars were relatively new" seems to be even better justification for a durable fix to the factory design. Most old Bugs I've purchased have had a "hard start" relay when I bought them and I left it in place. My buggy does not have a hard start relay, but it also doesn't have a VW ignition switch or wiring harness.
BTW — that ‘65 111 of yours is damn cool. We don’t see those very often in the US.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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zerotofifty
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2003
Posts: 2865
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| Posted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: need help understanding what a hard start relay helps |
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I suppose some might also think steel belted radial tires are a "band-aid" for a worn suspension, and thus should not be used. If our Bugs came factory equipped with bias ply tires, any better tires are simply not needed.  And Heavan forbid one install LED brake lights, that is only a band-aid for bad connections and a weak switch to the stock brake light.  |
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schwim
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2008
Posts: 304
Location: Coastal VA, 'Murica
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: need help understanding what a hard start relay helps |
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Got my relay today and swapped out the ignition switch as well. I'm glad I did. It's pretty clear that was my sometimes start problem:
Between my batteries, relay and switch, I'm hoping to keep any future problems at bay.
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Zippy the Wonderbug's achingly slow meandering toward roadworthiness |
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MrGoodtunes
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2012
Posts: 965
Location: South Florida
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 5:02 pm Post subject: Re: need help understanding what a hard start relay helps |
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| schwim wrote: |
... my sometimes start problem:
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That start contact (#50) is badly pitted. Mine fail'd due to some sort of black residue on start contact. It wasn't pitted, and the black stuff came off easily with paper towel. Put it back together, and it's been working ever since (more than 6 years now). You can see the black area at about 1:00 position in middle of this pic:
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 25403
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: need help understanding what a hard start relay helps |
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| MrGoodtunes wrote: |
| Mine fail'd due to some sort of black residue on start contact. It wasn't pitted, and the black stuff came off easily with paper towel. |
The black stuff was probably a mixture of metal/plastic dust and dielectric grease. Taken many of the early bell shaped headlight switches apart over the years, all have a clear grease in them.
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In Stereo, Where Available! |
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zerotofifty
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2003
Posts: 2865
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: need help understanding what a hard start relay helps |
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Be sure to have a cover on your unique battery. Bugs have caught fire do to the rear seat springs shorting the battery terminals when a heavy person or package was set on the seat over the battery. Make sure the battery has a cover!!!!!!
I personally know of a Bug that caught fire do to this. I aint kidding. |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3481
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: need help understanding what a hard start relay helps |
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| EVfun wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| EVfun wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| wdfifteen wrote: |
| I've seen a lot of people put in "hard start" relays when what they really needed is a new starter bushing or to clean the battery terminals. As has been stated, the only advantage is to take some of the current load off of the ignition switch. |
Can also be the voltage drop between the key switch and the solenoid.
But the answer to the question what a hard start relay helps is; It helps to mask a problem that should have been done correctly. |
You know we are driving old economy cars. Perhaps it was just VWs saving a buck a car by not using large enough wires, or start switch contacts capable of handling the potential inrush current of a starter solenoid. This is the same company that didn't fuse the ignition coil circuit despite the circuit path running from the back of the car to the front of the car, and then back to the back of the car to the coil. They didn't fuse the headlight high beams until 1960 or the front parking lights on US models until at least 1966. They couldn't even be bothered to include a fuseable link.
Let me tell you a little story about another economy car, the Geo Metro (rebadged Suzuki). They ran the headlight wiring up the steering columm and through that switch on the stalk. It didn't drive headlight relays -- the full current of the headlights ran through the approximately 18 gauge wires and the 3mm spade terminals. It worked for them because it lasted longer than 3 years. But at 4 years you notice the headlights are little dim. Not wanting to dig too far I didn't find a problem. At about 6 years and 90k miles the headlights suddenly went out. I opened up the fuse box and steering column to chase the headlight wiring and found the blackened connections. I cleaned them all up the best I could and used them to run headlight relays. The headlights were brighter than when new, and they didn't dim again. |
I have a 65, 111 1200"A" that I've owned 55 years, and a 64 113 for 50 years. I also was working for a VW dealer as a line mechanic/later a unit repair mechanic 53 years ago. I can tell you this voltage drop thing/starter inop. thing was happening even when the cars were relatively new as well. We were never allowed to install a hard start relay at the dealer I worked at. Our service manager (from the old country) called the relay repair a Band-Aid approach. Some people outside our dealer were at that time were using K/G horn relays, but if wone of us tech was ever found going that we would have been looking for a new job. |
This starter solenoid issues "was happening even when the cars were relatively new" seems to be even better justification for a durable fix to the factory design. Most old Bugs I've purchased have had a "hard start" relay when I bought them and I left it in place. My buggy does not have a hard start relay, but it also doesn't have a VW ignition switch or wiring harness.
BTW — that ‘65 111 of yours is damn cool. We don’t see those very often in the US. |
It's a 65 1200"A" Custom (Euro spec with the last of the 36 hp engine with factory 7.2 compression) I bought from the original owner in 1968, Because he was bringing it back from Germany it had towel rack bumpers. FYI Canadian 1200 customs had the 40hp engine. In the link below is my car next to a friend's 113 1967 deluxe 1300 6volt that she bought new in Hamburg.
http://www.pismoderelicts.com/photogallery/new%20format%20834/images/img_0138_edited_1.jpg
http://www.pismoderelicts.com/photogallery/new%20format%20834/images/img_0136_edited_1.jpg
http://www.pismoderelicts.com/photogallery/new%20format%20834/thumbnails/img_0131_edited_1.jpg
It's still got it's original chrome bumpers.
http://www.pismoderelicts.com/photogallery/new%20format%20834/images/img_0135_edited_1.jpg
BTW that black stuff on the contacts is carbon from arching contacts. |
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kvasilak
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2024
Posts: 48
Location: Minnrsota
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: need help understanding what a hard start relay helps |
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| pastellgreen wrote: |
...
Yes.
But I can vote for WW harnesses, as they are good quality and help improving the light as well the starting issues, together with the whole contact cleaning procedures... |
IDK, I bought a WW harness, and the spade terminals are terrible light gauge, and one time use only. if you unplug one it's so loose it doesn't work anymore, just falls off.
This summer I'm going to put new terminals on everything |
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pastellgreen
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2012
Posts: 1095
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2024 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: need help understanding what a hard start relay helps |
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| kvasilak wrote: |
| pastellgreen wrote: |
...
Yes.
But I can vote for WW harnesses, as they are good quality and help improving the light as well the starting issues, together with the whole contact cleaning procedures... |
IDK, I bought a WW harness, and the spade terminals are terrible light gauge, and one time use only. if you unplug one it's so loose it doesn't work anymore, just falls off.
This summer I'm going to put new terminals on everything |
I did not have this problem, installed the kit this summer that I bought two years ago. |
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pastellgreen
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2012
Posts: 1095
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2024 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: need help understanding what a hard start relay helps |
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| zerotofifty wrote: |
| I suppose some might also think steel belted radial tires are a "band-aid" for a worn suspension, and thus should not be used. If our Bugs came factory equipped with bias ply tires, any better tires are simply not needed. And Heavan forbid one install LED brake lights, that is only a band-aid for bad connections and a weak switch to the stock brake light. |
This comment doesn't help anything.
My advice to have a close look on the eqipment first before put in any additional parts for healing symptoms was obviously not that bad, when we now have a look on the result of disassembling the ignition switch above.
That has nothing to do with beeing a stock nazi or not. And by the way, my car has halogen headlights and is rolling on Japanese radial tyres. |
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Zwitterkafer
Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2007
Posts: 953
Location: Lanark County, Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2024 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: need help understanding what a hard start relay helps |
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The hard start relay will help with an ignition switch that is on its way to failure. Theoretically it may also help pull in the starter solenoid a little better. But the root causes of bad ignition switch contacts, burned starter solenoid contacts, bad wires and grounds etc., are just being masked. Perhaps temporarily justified if the correct replacement parts are not at hand or proper repairs must be delayed. The biggest improvements I've experienced came from putting in a new starter bushing, and a new starter solenoid with fresh internal contacts.
A hard start relay could be applied to the ignition coil as well.
Early on, VW acknowledged that the 6 volt twin carb Type 3's were sometimes harder to start. But this was because the ignition coil was additionally connected to a pair of electromagnetic pilot jets, and a pair of choke heater elements. Their solution, in the service manual, was to add relay 141951251B to the ignition coil. The relay connected starter terminal 30 directly to the coil 15, only when cranking (terminal 50) was live. This maintained at least 4.5 volts at the coil (15) while cranking, with a good battery. The alternative offered was to replace the stock coil with a high performance non-VW Bosch unit.
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zerotofifty
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2003
Posts: 2865
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2024 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: need help understanding what a hard start relay helps |
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| pastellgreen wrote: |
| zerotofifty wrote: |
| I suppose some might also think steel belted radial tires are a "band-aid" for a worn suspension, and thus should not be used. If our Bugs came factory equipped with bias ply tires, any better tires are simply not needed. And Heavan forbid one install LED brake lights, that is only a band-aid for bad connections and a weak switch to the stock brake light. |
This comment doesn't help anything.
My advice to have a close look on the eqipment first before put in any additional parts for healing symptoms was obviously not that bad, when we now have a look on the result of disassembling the ignition switch above.
That has nothing to do with beeing a stock nazi or not. And by the way, my car has halogen headlights and is rolling on Japanese radial tyres. |
The relay can even help when all other systems are in like new condition. the relay reduces wear on the key switch, it can help in sub freezing conditions.
Your comment..."of course you can put in the relay, but this only heals the symptoms and not the cause." doesn't help anything in regard to key switch wear or cold weather starting even when the car is in like new condition. |
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Busstom
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2014
Posts: 4569
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2024 12:18 am Post subject: Re: Need help understanding what a hard start relay helps |
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As was stated in the 5th post of this thread, the path of the wire(s) in question is at least 20 feet in length. That is, in general, a pretty crappy design. Why not shorten it to 1 foot if possible? And in this case, it's extremely easy.
As I like to say, these cars didn't start "fine" all those years BECAUSE of that crappy design, they started IN SPITE of it.
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My name's Steve and it's pronounced "Bust 'em" (cuz people think I'm Tom)
| cory464 wrote: |
| if you aren't perfectly centered in the hole you will have issues when you tap it. |
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