Flywheel shim question

[panicman]

I have a 36hp with too much crankshaft end play. Hoping to re shim.

I pulled these shims and because I am unfamiliar, I am wondering if anyone can tell me about the condition of these shims. The darker rings stand tall enough to catch a fingernail.

[chrisflstf]

I would not use them, but buy more before you trash those. Shims need to be perfectly flat, no burrs, no cupping. That applies to any new shims you buy also

Since you didnt say, why is your endplay wrong? Rebuild time? Or you measured it on a worn motor and its out of spec?

[daveblank]

I'm not a VW expert(everyone will tell you that too) but I wouldn't use those shims. But, is your thrust bearing worn? Is the case worn? Or is the answer as simple as the last person set it up wrong? I would start looking into what you have too much end play or else it could keep getting worse & do more damage in the long run.

[EverettB]

Not an expert but I would replace the shims that have anything you can feel with a nail or have any other issues.

If the free play was off, the "step" may have been the source of that issue.

I replaced one or more shims on the 36hp in my old '55 Bus to get the free play back in spec and I had no issues afterward for 1000s of miles.
_________________
How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[67rustavenger]

Panicman, call Halsey and see if they have any 36hp sims in stock.
They let me into their warehouse a few years back to measure some 1600 shims to get a variety for my engine build. It's worth a call anyway.

Failing the above, give Always VW a call and ask Ashley if he has any shims in stock.
Always is closer to you than my next recommendation.

Avery's Cooled, Jason may have some 36hp shims in stock in Kelso.

I'd recommend taking a set of calipers or a micrometer with you to measure any shims available from any of the above vendors, to make sure that you get a variety of different thickness shims, so you can fine tune your end play.

If any of those recommendations don't work out, hit me up.
There's a couple guys here in Washington County I can ask if they have 36hp shims for sale.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!
2003 Astrovan? GFYS again, Xevin!

[panicman]

Thanks to all of you.

I'm trying to avoid duplicating another thread, so I left a fair amount of details out.

This 36 ran fine with good compression but was making a loud knocking noise. After several days of trying different things, I finally grasped the crankshaft pulley and push/pulled, and felt play along with a loud resonant clunk. Folks following the thread diagnosed endplay. So I pulled the flywheel and shims, and tapped the crankshaft forward. Doing so, I feel no movement or slip at the main bearing.

So, that gives me hope that I can properly shim this engine and get it to run for a while.

You're caught up!

So now my question about these shims is basically a "WTF?"

Why are these shims worn this way? I do assume that this wear played some role in the end play. But is this kind of wear evidence common? Or does this suggest some kind of less common abuse (riding the clutch, etc...).

[panicman]

I know an image of this is not a good basis for diagnosis or full analysis, but here is the front main bearing. I cannot get it to move. It feels to be solidly in place.

[panicman]

Also, I have an engine gasket kit, a bit aged, for the 36hp.

It doesn't have a paper shim for the flywheel, but a metal one:

Will this work, or should I toss it and get a paper one?

[volky1970]

Panicman,

On the pic where the red arrow is pointing, is that area thinner than the rest? If so, it has uneven wear which would cause damage to the shims.

I say this since on a rebuild to my 2109cc engine I installed the bearings and the main did not seat correctly on the pin. Since it did not lock up upon turning I installed it in the car and drove it almost 100 miles round trip to a VW show I wanted to go for months. Endplay was set at .005 being turbo I left it a bit lose.

Long story short, I got home and went to feel the endplay, just for fun and it got to .011 on that trip. Next day, took off flywheel to find wear on the shims like you but no dark spots. Upon closer inspection of the bearing is that I noticed 2 of the oval shapes of the main were slightly larger. Putting the bearing on a glass confirmed a wobble. The bearing was not totally flat on the glass.

Other than that the engine was OK. The bearing had the mark of it being pinched by the pin.

_________________
1970 Beetle Turbo 2109cc MS II EFI, W/M Injection, Intercooler, FORD Wasted Spark Coilpack, 48lb. Injectors.

[panicman]

Hi volky,

I'll take a dead-on picture and post it to be sure.

I believe the arrow you inserted is at a place where the distance from the edge of the bearing to the edge of the case appears narrower because of the angle when I snapped the picture. I was trying to avoid a shadow and probably provided a distorted perspective.

[chrisflstf]

How much was your endplay?

You need to check bearing movement with a dial indicator. You cant feel or see a few thousands accurately. If the bearing is moving, and you shim it tighter, you risk seizing the bearing, effectively destroying the motor

[panicman]

[volky1970]

[quote="panicman"]

[panicman]

I'm back at this again. Today when I was setting up to measure end play, I noticed what feels like a lot of movement. Does this look like too much free play in all directions at the flywheel, or is this normal, and I should just check end play at the crank pulley and at the flywheel?
https://youtu.be/Ix25SjsSyzo?si=9s8JhNOfKosFXsEH

And it WAS torqued on there pretty good.

[panicman]

Also, with the flywheel back off, I checked the bearing again for movement and it feels solid:
https://youtu.be/u0n9nhlRyHQ?si=MSB6jyPJdzclCtC0

[SGKent]

the way that is rocking it looks like you did not torque the gland nut. It has to be torqued to spec when you are setting the endplay. I find using a dial indicator with a magnetic base to be the easiest way to do it. Also learn to keep your shims clean. You can't accurately measure something that is covered in grit.

photo from the gallery waxhead.

_________________
"Most people don't know what they're doing, and a lot of them are really good at it." - George Carlin

[panicman]

Thanks.

Torqued!

I took 5 measurements at the flywheel, and 5 at the pulley.

The flywheel average is .0375.

The pulley average is .0367.

The shims I pulled add up to .0325

What do y'all think?

[mikedjames]

Torqued down flywheels should not rock.
Clunks from crank hitting engine are in the 0.1 inch endfloat region.

If the clunking went away with your foot on the clutch , it could have been a loose flywheel, and that might have helped chew up the shims.

You did do it up to the correct torque ?
_________________
Ancient vehicles and vessels

1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.

1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy

[oprn]

I my experience if there is enough end play to hear an laudable knock when driving then that thrust bearing is moving and the bearing saddle is going to have to be thrust cut.

In fact I would bet the farm on it!
_________________
Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old!

[txoval]

If the flywheel was torqued (250ft/lbs minimum) in that first video your thrust bearing is toast. Trying to move the crank with your fingers on the gland bolt isnt going to work.

For 36hp, I use an early Porsche flywheel shim…note a single shim. Measure endplay without shim and then order the one shim to get you the correct endplay. The early Porsche shims are the same size/shape as 36hp VW…just used one thicker shim