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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52277
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 Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Nightmares |
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| 1988M5 wrote: |
So, with brand new shoes (max outer diameter) and brand-new drums (minimum inner diameter) the adjuster needs to be that wide to get any resistance?
Doesn't make sense. Sum Ting Wong.
BK |
I am not so sure that the typical brake shoe sold today meets specs size wise. I came close to having a brake failure coming down the long grade west of Jerome. I knew I didn't like something going on with the brakes coming down the grade so I kept my speed really slow, pissing a lot of the people of who choose to drive that road just for the thrill. Once I got home, the next time I went to go anywhere I had no rear brakes as the piston had popped out of the cylinder on one side, even though the linings still had about 75% of their original depth and the drums were well within spec. I considered welding a shim on the bottom ends of the shoes to give a better fit, but ended up just adding the Bay adjusters.
Last edited by Wildthings on Tue May 20, 2025 3:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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do.dah
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 792
Location: Washington
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Nightmares |
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Are you talking about the starwheel lever not being totally on the ratchet of the starwheel?
If so, whenever I've done the drums on these vans, that's the way the lever arm is.
I agree, it seems as though the brake engineers/designers were really hung over the day they drew up the specs, but mine work and do their job despite not being in a spot that I feel is right. |
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Chootrain470
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2023
Posts: 149
Location: Simi Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Nightmares |
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| do.dah wrote: |
Are you talking about the starwheel lever not being totally on the ratchet of the starwheel?
If so, whenever I've done the drums on these vans, that's the way the lever arm is.
I agree, it seems as though the brake engineers/designers were really hung over the day they drew up the specs, but mine work and do their job despite not being in a spot that I feel is right. |
Exactly this. I am concerned that with brake wear, the arm will no longer contact the star wheel. I am considering adding a washer next to the star wheel in order for it to align better. |
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do.dah
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 792
Location: Washington
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Nightmares |
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| Chootrain470 wrote: |
| do.dah wrote: |
Are you talking about the starwheel lever not being totally on the ratchet of the starwheel?
If so, whenever I've done the drums on these vans, that's the way the lever arm is.
I agree, it seems as though the brake engineers/designers were really hung over the day they drew up the specs, but mine work and do their job despite not being in a spot that I feel is right. |
Exactly this. I am concerned that with brake wear, the arm will no longer contact the star wheel. I am considering adding a washer next to the star wheel in order for it to align better. |
Welp, all I can tell ya, is I've run my shoes to paper thin, and the arm was still engaged as your pics show.
Personally, I wouldn't do anything to try and "fix" it as both you and I see it.
I agree, one would think that the designers would've made it to totally engage those teeth.
My thinking; perhaps they designed it that way for a reason, and I ain't bright enough to see their thinking/rational?
I think you're good to go. |
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crazyvwvanman
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 10364
Location: Orbiting San Diego
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Nightmares |
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Factory VW brake service assembly kit, notice full engagement of lever and teeth.
Mark |
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Chootrain470
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2023
Posts: 149
Location: Simi Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 4:01 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Nightmares |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Factory VW brake service assembly kit, notice full engagement of lever and teeth.
Mark |
I followed that diagram during assembly. I think what I'll do tonight is go through my brakes spring by spring to make sure they match even though I'm pretty sure they do. I still have my old shoes so I may put a tape measure to them as well. I have contacted Van Cafe to see if they have any suggestions.
I am really wondering if the shoes are just a different shape than the originals and that is causing this issue. I may end up just adding a shim to see if it helps. I don't see any immediate issue with adding a shim so long as it fits well and doesn't hit anything.
I'll put more pictures up later. |
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Chootrain470
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2023
Posts: 149
Location: Simi Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Nightmares |
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| After some consideration and taking with an older neighbor, I decided to just slightly bend the adjuster arm and leave the adjuster as-is. If it becomes an issue in the future, I can take another look. I think adding a spacer just ads an unknown that isn’t worth gambling. |
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Chootrain470
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2023
Posts: 149
Location: Simi Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Nightmares |
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I moved back to my front brake today. I was able to bend the new hardline to shape and install the new retainer spring and brake hose. Yes!
Tomorrow I should be able to bleed my brakes and finish adjusting my rear brakes. Hopefully all goes well! |
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ZsZ
Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010
Posts: 1733
Location: Budapest Hungary, Europe
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| Posted: Mon May 19, 2025 10:04 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Nightmares |
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The adjuster lever are flimsier on the aftermarket shoes.
Usually the Z bend on the shoe side is not as sharply bent so the other end is not in the good position.
Just bend the lever to have 90 degree bends, that hepls
_________________
Zoltan
1.9 MTdi 2wd Multivan (ex Caravelle)
Van since 2006, engine since 2008 |
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Chootrain470
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2023
Posts: 149
Location: Simi Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2025 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Nightmares |
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Response from Van Cafe:
"We're limited on the shoes we can source. The preferred brand was SBS. They disappeared during COVID and never came back. Can you make what you received work? If not, let me know, and I will make a return for you."
I am going to work with what I have and hope it works. |
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do.dah
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 792
Location: Washington
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2025 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Nightmares |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Factory VW brake service assembly kit, notice full engagement of lever and teeth.
Mark |
Thank you Mark! (hope you see this.)
Sorry if this comes across as hijacking this thread, but, perhaps Chootrain and I can all learn something here?
When you do the rear brakes, nowadays, do you get the full engagement?
What's the secret? Bend the bar in places to get that full engagement, while not rubbing on anything but the starwheel?
Also, are these rear brakes like American cars, where you apply a little brake pressure and drive backwards a few yards to finely adjust the rear brakes?
I feel that they are, at least they seem to work that way? |
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Chootrain470
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2023
Posts: 149
Location: Simi Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 20, 2025 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Nightmares |
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I ended up bending the ‘Z’ shaped portion of the arm a bit and that seems to have at least partially fixed the offset problem at the Star wheel. I could bend more but I’d have to remove the adjusting arm and I don’t think it’s necessary.
On another note, I bled the brakes today and pressed the brake a bunch of times. I took the van for a test drive and have some observations.
1. The brakes are only marginally better than before.
2. The drum on one side got hot to the touch and smells of brake material.
3. The other drum is only warm with no smell of brake material.
4. The parking brake hardly works. I have to pull it all the way and it just barely starts engaging.
The brake drums were put on so that I could barely move the wheel so I’m sure they are tight enough. I’m thinking the ebrake may need tightening? |
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Chootrain470
Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2023
Posts: 149
Location: Simi Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2025 9:06 am Post subject: Re: Brake Nightmares |
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Here's another update a week later:
1. The van rear brakes work, but with issues. I loosened the adjuster on the wheel that was too tight and resolved that issue.
2. The emergency brake still hardly works.
3. The pedal has a vibration when braking that makes me suspect warped drums. How common is this on new drums? They are Zimmerman drums.
I will be taking the drums off again tomorrow and have a mechanic turn them. I'm hoping that solves my issues. |
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