70 Campmobile, 1776cc or 2180cc ?

[SteelersBus]

Hello from central Pennsylvania. I have a 1970 Campmobile. Lookin to have an engine built.

Stock Transmission.

Should I go 1776cc with dual kadrons? Or 2180cc with the dual carbs?

I’ve been gettin some feedback that a bigger engine will run hotter in the PA Mtns? That a stock oil cool and doghouse isn’t ideal for a bigger engine?

Thoughts and input appreciated.
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70 Campmobile, 70 Sedan, 71 SO-69 Westy, & 74 Westy

[SGKent]

I know people who have been very happy with a 1776 engine. Be aware that the transmissions were not built for high speed driving, and that pulls into a head wind or up a grade can overheat the gear oil in the differential area enough to damage things. Some Vanagon owners with larger engines have had to modify their transmissions to include oil pumps, coolers and squirters inside their 091/094 transmissions to spray cooling oil onto gears and things. And if your bus has a 002 instead of a 091, it is even weaker.
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[RLFD213]

Steeler go with the 2180 and find a good cam that gives you a power band to 6,000 rpm. Spend the extra money on good heads. Regarding oil cooling. Get the case full flowed and use a remote filter and a remote cooler with an electric thermostat fan. Doing those mods will increase oil capacity to about 6 quarts and you can get rid of the dog house cooler and have a better oiling system. Regarding the stock trans. Use a stage 2 clutch and that will be perfect for it.

[sodbuster]

Throwing displacement and horsepower at a bus without treating the transaxle accordingly Is asking for something to break. Either the motor due to the limitations of the stock gearing. Or the transaxle due to the abusive torque a large displacement motor can put on it.

That is why VW in it's infinite wisdom changed the final drive ratios and other internal bits, over the baywindow production run, as engine displacement increased. Three distinct ring and pinion ratios over three different bus transaxle designs. 002 early, 002 late and 091. For these reasons alone matching the gearing of your transaxle to the displacement of your motor is always a good thing to do.
If it was good enough for VW. Right?

BTW I run a 1776cc motor Engle 100 cam 041 heads. Full flow oil system with external filter and cooler.

Transaxle is a modified Early 002 with the 4.86 ring and pinion from a Late 002. But that's what works for me.

[SGKent]

also thinking about your question, 1971 has forged flanged rear axle hubs. 1970 has cast iron drums with the central hub cast as part of it. The 1970 cast iron drums will not take the torque the 1971 and later bus flanges will. Pretty much all the replacements are lessor quality reproductions compared to the original German made parts. You also mention your bus is a camper, so that means extra weight, which will put extra wear on the CV joints. For the record, Sodbuster is one of the most knowledgeable members that TheSamba has who know bus transmissions. Good luck with your decision.
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[TomWesty]

I have a Westy with a 1776 with dual kads. It’s pretty fun to drive when it’s empty. With a bigger load I wish I had a 2180. My base altitude is over a mile high though. In Penn you may be okay with a little less displacement. I can almost guarantee that you will wish you went bigger if you have a 1776.
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[W1K1]

Definitely go with the bigger motor and get a cam that will give you torque over the whole rpm range. You will find you only need part of the throttle to move it instead of wot all the time
And gearing it to match the hp is always a good thing
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1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap

[Clatter]

The enemy is heat.

Power is heat and you are limited my how much your fan and fins can shed.

Oil coolers don't cool heads.

The type 4 could make more power because it has more fins and fan.

Sure, you can build for more power, big badass stroker
And you can load your bus and kill the engine in one big trip up the mountains in 4th gear.

Having power available requires judicious use.
You'll have to drive it by the gauges on the highway.
Lean into it like a modern car and it will fry.

But, yeah, bigger engines can be fun at stop lights,
And for bragging rights,
But they're really a waste on the highway,
And they -never- last like a proper stock engine - power limited to match the cooling by design.
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[wcfvw69]

I had a 1776 in my old 70' camper bus. It was stock other than the bigger pistons and heavy duty rocker arms. With all the original rebuilt ancillary items on the engine, it started, ran and drove nicely. Very reliable, for sure.
With that said, this engine in that heavy bus was very under powered in the mountains. My son and I went camping in the Arizona mountains. Many of the mountain grades found us in the slow lane in second gear hoping we didn't get rear ended! lol.
My take away was these buses can be very reliable and get ya there, but don't be in a hurry. They were never designed to climb mountain grades at 60 miles an hour. Only buses converted to Subaru engine can achieve that.
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[Clatter]

^^well said^^

Here's a good discussion about how to build for the bus application:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=776289&highlight=stocker
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Bus Motor Build

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[mikedjames]

I have only seen one 2110 T1 engine in a bus.
It had a loose valve seat, its owner liked to drive at 70.

Cylinder head cooling is the weakness. Drive at over about 65mph in a bus on the flat, something you can do with even a 1641, and your cylinder heads start to get a lot hotter, fast.

External oil coolers can keep the temperature of the rest of the engine down but cannot do so much for the heads.

Better to base a big bus engine on a Type 4 cooling system.

In a Beetle, you can go fast without using all of the power of the engine.
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Ancient vehicles and vessels

1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.

1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy

[Hooligan1948]

Personally, I would go for the 2180. Stock buses are underpowered for reliability and long life. Since these Type 2s were built there have been a lot of advancements in air cooled technology that greatly enhance performance and reliability, at a price. Porsche had their air cooled 911s cranking out 450 reliable horsepower from twin turbo flat sixes right up until they switched to water cooled. Thermal barrier ceramic coating the combustion chamber and piston crown is a do-it-yourself level improvement that can easily be accomplished with regular spray equipment. There are videos on YouTube that will take you through step by step. Air cure or get fancy and bake the head in an oven at 300 degrees for an hour. Personally, I wouldn't build a camper motor without ceramic coating the combustion chamber, the exhaust port and, the stem and backside of the valve. Nickel plating the cylinders is a bit more involved and expensive but, it's all up to you and how involved you want to get. Reduce friction and the absorption of heat into the aluminum of the head and the motor will love you for it.

[static]

In my (admittedly worthless) opinion, the answer is “none of the above”.

I run stock in my ‘71 Westy, which weighs in a 3800 pounds (1723 kg) with normal camping gear and my fat ass in it.

I also live in the Mojave Desert. Last week, I ran it up to one of the other shitty desert cities in the summer heat. Never overheated. (I have an oil temp gauge)

Try that with your upright engine on steroids. Normal oil temps will allude you. This gets costly.

Generations of teams of German engineers knew more than we do.

[richparker]

8.0:1 2180 with a FF Autolina bubble top case, external cooler and deep sump. Engle 110, cb 044 CNC ported heads, cb crank, cb H-beam rods, Mahle pistons, total seal rings, real 009 with Pertronix, weber Idf40s, real German tins, velocity ring, working thermostat and flaps, T4 oil cooler, oil temp/oil pressure /DD head temp gauges, stage one Kennedy clutch, rebuilt stock transaxle and 195r14 tires.
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[wcfvw69]

[richparker]

[TomWesty]

Thanks for chiming in Rich. I didn’t want to tell your story for you. I have serious engine envy every time I have much of a load! RED-E motor sports in SLC also has a big motor in their shop truck that they go all over in pulling a trailer. What do your CHTs get to on an up hill pull?
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[richparker]

[W1K1]