6v electrical wizard help needed. (Starter issue)

[NAES]

Helping my buddy on his '58 Westy. Very original with a 6v system and minimal hackery to the wiring.

The problem is the starter not engaging intermittently.

Ignition was removed and sprayed down with contact cleaner. Terminal function verified with a test light and power applied.

Power to the 6v starter relay verified.
Ignition switch power to the relay verified.
Relay clicks when power is applied.
Power verified at starter solenoid when ignition switch is activated.
6v power at the back of starter motor verified.
Screwdriver will jump both starter motor and solenoid to sterter motor. Both sound good with no hesitation.

Battery terminals cleaned.
Battery ground cleaned
Trans strap grounds cleaned
Starter connections cleaned.
Ignition switch screw terminals cleaned.

We're still having an intermittant issue with the switch engaging the starter solenoid. My guess is the starter solenoid is the problem even though it will engage every time with a screwdriver jump.

Are we missing anything? I've exhausted all the things I can think of. Before we swap solenoids or starters is there anything you guys can come up with. I'd hate to have hime throw $130 bucks at the problem with no change.

Thanks everyone, NAES
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Barndoor Mafia
Box On Wheels
SBS #00

[tasb]

Remove and clean the inside of the ignition switch with electrical contact cleaner. Remove the starter and shine up the mating surfaces on the starter and the bell housing. These are things I need to do to my 1957 Kombi after each winters storage. The switch is 69 years old and the wiring gains resistance with age.

You might also consider tinning the ignition switch wire ends.
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Roads Scholar
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

Member# 2059

[sub-hatchtim]

Og harness maybe full of corrosion

Try adding a hard start relay
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58' pg/sg silo fridge westy
58 Dove blue singlecab
76 911S

[thom]

Dumb question, but what condition is the battery? I've had this issue many times, and even though the battery "wasn't that old" when I took it down to have it tested, it was bad.
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-Thom
1956 Single Cab
1957 Porsche 356A Sunroof
1957 23-Window Deluxe
1957 Mercedes Westfalia single cab
1963 Unimog 404
1965 E-Type

[NAES]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

OG VW switch was removed and internals sprayed with contact cleaner through the key hole. We didn't pop it apart to physically clean contacts. We weren't ready to go that far seeing as we don't have a backup unit on hand in case we screw something up.

I forgot to mention there is a 6V relay installed. We verified power to all the terminals and the relay clicks when starter power is engaged. Guessing that's good enough?

No idea on the age of the battery. Being 6V I guess its a crap shoot. Lights seem like they're bright enough for 6V. The engine cranks over like a champ when the starter actually engages.

We didn't think to remove the starter and clean the surface between the starter and bell housing. Seems like a smart thing to do, especially since there's a lot of oil on the engine and trans.

Again, thanks for the feedback. We'll get it up in the air and check things again soon.
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Barndoor Mafia
Box On Wheels
SBS #00

[swharris]

With all the other issues checked, as you have pointed out, IMO this will either be a bad spot on the starter armature or the solenoid is going south/bad. Pull the starter, take it apart, and clean/sand the armature. Confirm the solenoid works every time with 4-6v. Also make sure the actuating arm that connects the solenoid to the starter armature is not binding and is working as it should. BTW there is no reason to clean the mounting surfaces of the starter/bell housing other than to make sure the gear engages properly. There is no electrical reason. The bolts will ground the starter to trans/ground strap/body.

Link

[guatebus]

I'll repeat the battery advice given above: get the battery tested or just get a new one.

When in the "pull in" phase, the solenoid on the starter will draw more current than when just turning over the motor. So just because it cranks OK once it gets going doesn't mean that the battery is OK.

The first bad battery symptom I get on my 6V system is the starter not engaging, especially when the motor is warm.
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'64 standard microbus
'69 deluxe microbus

[Eric&Barb]

Definitely load test the battery.

1. Did you clean dielectric the starter and transaxle surfaces where they mount together?? Need that for a good ground there.

2. Did you clean and dielectric grease between the starter body and the solenoid for a good ground there??

3. How is the starter motor brushes?? Need to be longer than the cages they reside in.

4. How worn are BOTH STARTER BUSHINGS?? If not running a self supporting starter.

5. Fuse box riveted connections soldered up??

6. Headlight switch internal and external riveted connections soldered up??

7. Have you load tested the wiring for voltage resistance with a spare sealed beam head light connected (solenoid disconnected for this test) to the smaller wire at the solenoid?? Need to know how much voltage at the battery and at the solenoid.

If the starter solenoid pulls and engages the starter motor by shorting at the solenoid, then it is fine.
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In Stereo, Where Available!

[NAES]

[NAES]

Thanks everyone for the replies!

We'll tackle this job again soon.
_________________
Barndoor Mafia
Box On Wheels
SBS #00

[Eric&Barb]

[matthew henricks]

Oh how this sounds so familiar.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=792826&highlight=

My problem ended up being the solenoid. Poor contact internally.
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1964 Original Owner build Thread. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=702135&highlight=

Ambulance Fan's. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=627707&highlight=

Parts i am looking for:
64 bug nice used front/rear Black LHD floor mat.

[Bobs67vwagen]

My experience with this issue usually involved the wire running from the switch to the solenoid. As this long length wire ages, resistance builds and you no longer get a good flow of current to the solenoid. In my case it occurred now and then, not all the time. . Good luck Bob

[BarryL]

[swharris]

You guys do understand "dielectric grease" is NON-CONDUCTIVE, right? It is used not to help promote electrical conductivity, but to PROTECT connections from corrosion(which I guess could eventually help with conductivity) and as a thermal barrier in some cases.

Many people do not understand that dielectric grease does not help enhance good connections with respect to conductivity. It is an insulator not a conductor.

Maybe all that non-conductive grease is your issue

From the interwebs:
"What is Dielectric Grease?
Dielectric grease is defined as a silicone-based grease used to protect electrical components from dirt, moisture, and corrosion. It is also known as silicone grease.
It is a non-conductive, waterproof grease made by combining silicone oil with a thickener. It helps transfer heat from electrical devices.

What is Dielectric Grease Used For?
Dielectric grease is used to disturb the flow of electric current with the property of good lubricants. It is used in many applications including home electrical work, vehicle wiring, and automotive tune-up.
Dielectric grease does not dissolve in most liquids like methanol, mineral oil, ethanol, and water, making it suitable for marine and outdoor applications. However, it can dissolve in xylene, mineral spirits, and Methyl Ethyl Ketone (MEK).
Silicon grease base thermal grease is a good thermal conductive filler and it has good heat transferability. It is used in PCB to transfer heat from the device.

Is Dielectric Grease Conductive?
Dielectric grease is not a conductive material, it is an insulator. Hence, it prevents the flow of current.
To assures the insulator property of dielectric grease, we can perform a simple test with the help of a multimeter. Keep the multimeter on the diode symbol which used to find the conductivity. Inflate the dielectric grease on one probe of the multimeter. And make a normal connection of this probe with the second probe. You will not hear any sound. So, it is an insulator.

How to Use Dielectric Grease?
Dielectric grease helps to prevent arcing between the electrical components. But before using the dielectric grease, you must know that it is an insulator. So, use the dielectric properly with an electrical connection.
The thermal paste (thermal grease) is used to drain out the excess amount of heat from the electrical circuit components like transistors, LED, etc.
When you use the silicon grease, inflate the grease only on the outer surface or body of the component. And must assure that it must not touch where you are connecting the components or in the path of the electric current."

[Eric&Barb]

[swharris]

[Eric&Barb]

[70bus]

Advice from a pro on dielectric grease

https://www.w8ji.com/dielectric_grease_vs_conductive_grease.htm

[Eric&Barb]