| Author |
Message |
WestyBob
Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2004
Posts: 2346
Location: Portland, Oregon
|
 Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Folks who have used the Small Car kit for the Subaru 2.5 swap... |
 |
|
I have three convers with some SmallCar components but overall SC is hit and miss.
I'd recommend taking a closer look at RMW or at least consult with Tom Lengyel (Syncro Shop) and see what he recommends. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17127
Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Team WorldTour
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 2427
Location: Der Vaterland
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:43 am Post subject: Re: Folks who have used the Small Car kit for the Subaru 2.5 swap... |
|
|
The guy I bought the rest of my H6 conversion parts from worked with Burley getting them perfect, but then he turned around a sold it all to SC.
I hope they didn't fuck it up.
But I'm sure this doesn't apply to your 2.5.
I still say the RJES bellhousing is the way to go.
And the SC oil pan.
_________________
1990 Feldjäger Syncro AAZ
Click to view image
H6 Subaru Engine Swap Thread
WV2ZZZ25ZFH094138(x)/ WV2YB0257LH057308(x)/ WV2ZZZ25ZLG113270/
"Where am I going? And what am I doing in this handbasket?" -Nicodemus Jordan
When All Else Fails: Lather, Rinse, Repeat! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
888
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2006
Posts: 125
Location: SW Ohio
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: Folks who have used the Small Car kit for the Subaru 2.5 swap... |
|
|
Thanks for the all the input. I need to review everything in detail. The money isn't going anywhere and it's clear I need to take the time to learn more before making a decision.
I'm sure everything has pluses and minuses and there's no one correct answer. However, there must be a path of least resistance. modification, and buying things that don't fit or won't work
I looked at the KEP adapter when I first started down this road and I didn't like something about it, for reasons I don't recall. Possibly a flat plate changing the position of the engine laterally versus a bellhousing, but I'm not sure.
My takeaways so far are that's best to mix and match so I'll try to do that instead. The RJES bellhousing and SC cast oil pan seem to be winners. So i need to move forward seeing what fits from there.....motor mount bar, exhaust, and so on.
Right now, I'm just trying to get the crankshaft pulley bolt loose, haha. A 24" chain wrench braced on a 6x6 has stopped it from turning, but breaker/4' pipe, dead blow on the breaker bar, electric or pneu impacts have only yielded a snicker. I've soaked it down with PB Blaster and Deep Creep, hopefully it breaks loose so I can do the TB service and head gaskets. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
D Clymer
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2986
Location: Issaquah, WA
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Folks who have used the Small Car kit for the Subaru 2.5 swap... |
|
|
I'm not sure that you need to mix and match. The Rocky Mountain Westy conversion package is great and you can get excellent results by just using their whole package. It does use an adaptor plate and flywheel, but those actually work fine. Not as pretty or OEM appearing as a conversion bellhousing, but it is proven.
The Smallcar system is actually pretty good at this point. Their engine mount and cast aluminum oil pan have always been good. I have these parts on my van and they work perfectly. The Smallcar exhaust is conceptually very nice because it follows the standard Vanagon layout. It has the additional advantage of being compatible with a stock Vanagon muffler. I have found this to be one of the quietest solutions. Their first generation stainless header was a disaster - way too thin, and a low grade of stainless steel. But their later stainless version has been lasting well for people. As others have mentioned here, they did not take care of customers who had bought the faulty stainless headers, and that's not good business practice in my opinion. But if we're just talking about the dependability of the latest version of the header, it seems to be fine now.
I wouldn't go with the Smallcar conversion bellhousing, though. The VW integrated slave cylinder they chose to use to operate the Subaru pressure plate and clutch is just not a good concept in my opinion. An adaptor plate is a better option and it will have none of the clutch release problems people have had with the Smallcar setup. The RJES bellhousing is amazing, but very expensive once you factor in shipping and duty.
So I would say that if you want to go the Rocky Mountain Westy route, you can buy the whole package and get a very good result. If you want to go the Smallcar route, the current versions of their engine mount/oil pan and exhaust system/header are now recommendable. If you match those with an adaptor plate and flywheel, you will have a nice and affordable conversion package. Probably the best bang for your buck.
Cheers,
Dave |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17127
Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
888
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2006
Posts: 125
Location: SW Ohio
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: Folks who have used the Small Car kit for the Subaru 2.5 swap... |
|
|
| D Clymer wrote: |
I'm not sure that you need to mix and match. The Rocky Mountain Westy conversion package is great and you can get excellent results by just using their whole package. It does use an adaptor plate and flywheel, but those actually work fine. Not as pretty or OEM appearing as a conversion bellhousing, but it is proven.
The Smallcar system is actually pretty good at this point. Their mount and cast aluminum oil pan have always been good. I have these on my van and they work perfectly. The Smallcar exhaust is conceptually very nice because it follows the standard layout. It has the additional advantage of being compatible with a stock muffler. I have found this to be one of the quietest solutions. Their first generation stainless header was a disaster - way too thin, and a low grade of stainless steel. But their later stainless version has been lasting well for people. As others have mentioned here, they did not take care of customers who had bought the faulty stainless headers, and that's not good business practice in my opinion. But if we're just talking about the dependability of the latest version of the header, it seems to be fine now.
I wouldn't go with the Smallcar conversion bellhousing, though. The VW integrated slave cylinder they chose to use to operate the Subaru pressure plate and clutch is just not a good concept in my opinion. An adaptor plate is a better option and it will have none of the clutch release problems people have had with the Smallcar setup. The RJES bellhousing is amazing, but very expensive once you factor in shipping and duty.
So I would say that if you want to go the Rocky Mountain Westy route, you can buy the whole package and get a very good result. If you want to go the Smallcar route, the current versions of their mount/oil pan and exhaust system/header are now recommendable. If you match those with an adaptor plate and flywheel, you will have a nice and affordable conversion package. Probably the best bang for your buck.
Cheers,
Dave |
Thank you for the detailed summary. The entire RMW package is too much investment for my old Vanagon, sort of like turbocharging a Yugo, but the affordable version of your summary sounds attractive. I will look into options for the flywheel and adapter plate. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
D Clymer
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2986
Location: Issaquah, WA
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Folks who have used the Small Car kit for the Subaru 2.5 swap... |
|
|
| 888 wrote: |
| D Clymer wrote: |
I'm not sure that you need to mix and match. The Rocky Mountain Westy conversion package is great and you can get excellent results by just using their whole package. It does use an adaptor plate and flywheel, but those actually work fine. Not as pretty or OEM appearing as a conversion bellhousing, but it is proven.
The Smallcar system is actually pretty good at this point. Their mount and cast aluminum oil pan have always been good. I have these on my van and they work perfectly. The Smallcar exhaust is conceptually very nice because it follows the standard layout. It has the additional advantage of being compatible with a stock muffler. I have found this to be one of the quietest solutions. Their first generation stainless header was a disaster - way too thin, and a low grade of stainless steel. But their later stainless version has been lasting well for people. As others have mentioned here, they did not take care of customers who had bought the faulty stainless headers, and that's not good business practice in my opinion. But if we're just talking about the dependability of the latest version of the header, it seems to be fine now.
I wouldn't go with the Smallcar conversion bellhousing, though. The VW integrated slave cylinder they chose to use to operate the Subaru pressure plate and clutch is just not a good concept in my opinion. An adaptor plate is a better option and it will have none of the clutch release problems people have had with the Smallcar setup. The RJES bellhousing is amazing, but very expensive once you factor in shipping and duty.
So I would say that if you want to go the Rocky Mountain Westy route, you can buy the whole package and get a very good result. If you want to go the Smallcar route, the current versions of their mount/oil pan and exhaust system/header are now recommendable. If you match those with an adaptor plate and flywheel, you will have a nice and affordable conversion package. Probably the best bang for your buck.
Cheers,
Dave |
Thank you for the detailed summary. The entire RMW package is too much investment for my old Vanagon, sort of like turbocharging a Yugo, but the affordable version of your summary sounds attractive. I will look into options for the flywheel and adapter plate. |
The adaptor plate and flywheel can be purchased most affordably from Outfront Motorsports. I'm not sure if it has gone up, but it used to be $480 for the set. You might also look for a used set. If you're on a budget, you might also take a look at the Kennedy Engineered Products parts. The engine carrier bar is conceptually the same as the RMW carrier bar. They've improved their header with a slip joint to manage expansion. The only part of theirs I would avoid is the cat and muffler assembly. It's just undersized. The KEP parts are the most affordable out there. The cooling system is the main other system you would need attend to. It's a good idea to take a look at Tom Shiels' cooling system diagram at http://www.subaruvanagon.com/tom/Cooling%20System.htm
He has done more experimenting with the Subaru/Vanagon cooling system than anyone else I know. I have used his Concept 5 cooling system on several vans and have found that is works great in all conditions I've experienced. He isn't selling parts anymore AFAIK, but the information is still very valuable and can help you find the right components for the cooling system from other vendors.
Cheers,
Dave |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RichBenn
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2005
Posts: 703
Location: Lake Tahoe, NV
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:50 pm Post subject: Re: Folks who have used the Small Car kit for the Subaru 2.5 swap... |
|
|
I have an earlier Smallcar that uses the adapter plate. This plate, I believe, was pretty much the same (if not) as the Kennedy Engineering adapter plate. Works great with the SmallCar header and carrier bits (unless they changed any of that with the BellHousing).
I never had a problem with my SmallCar header, unlike some. I followed the advice of someone on the Subaru-Vanagon Yahoo group who put a doughnut gasket and springs (with longer bolts) between the header and the J-tube exhaust piece. This may have been the difference, as it allows flexing.
_________________
Rich |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
furrylittleotter
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Folks who have used the Small Car kit for the Subaru 2.5 swap... |
|
|
Smallcar system is garbage surpassed only by their well documented history of horrendous service.
Throwing it all in the bin was one of the highlights of my life.
Neil2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 17127
Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
D Clymer
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2986
Location: Issaquah, WA
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:12 pm Post subject: Re: Folks who have used the Small Car kit for the Subaru 2.5 swap... |
|
|
I am a fan of the Smallcar engine mount/muffler brackets and their aluminum oil pan. I have used these on many conversions over the years and have had nothing but good luck with them. I also like the basic layout of their exhaust system. It looks the most factory of all the options and works well. Their first generation stainless header was failure prone, but the latest ones are fine.
The only parts they sell that have really been problematic are the aforementioned early stainless header and the conversion bell housing. The header has been revised. The majority of the parts in their conversion catalog work well and are priced pretty reasonably.
Smallcar and Rocky Mountain Westy both play an important part in making Subaru conversions attainable for the average Vanagon owner. Without readily available conversion parts like this, these conversions would require a lot more one off fabrication work and would be beyond the scope of a typical Vanagon owner.
Dave |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
furrylittleotter
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2008
Posts: 1506
Location: West Seattle
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:00 am Post subject: Re: Folks who have used the Small Car kit for the Subaru 2.5 swap... |
|
|
Smallcar oilpan bulging and leaking in middle for no reason.
Smallcar oilpan mounting bolt area cracked and broken even though properly torqued to 6 ft/lbs.
Both claims denied by Smallcar.
Note the cracking and porosity of the material.
Garbage.
Neil2 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Team WorldTour
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 2427
Location: Der Vaterland
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Folks who have used the Small Car kit for the Subaru 2.5 swap... |
|
|
...and they have the nerve to jack up a van by the oil pan as an advert?
Personally, from what I've read here, everyone should just 'forget' they exist and find the parts elsewhere....
_________________
1990 Feldjäger Syncro AAZ
Click to view image
H6 Subaru Engine Swap Thread
WV2ZZZ25ZFH094138(x)/ WV2YB0257LH057308(x)/ WV2ZZZ25ZLG113270/
"Where am I going? And what am I doing in this handbasket?" -Nicodemus Jordan
When All Else Fails: Lather, Rinse, Repeat! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5930
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:26 am Post subject: Re: Folks who have used the Small Car kit for the Subaru 2.5 swap... |
|
|
Like some other posters, I have the SC adapter plate and engine cradle.
I had one of their terrible SS headers but it self-destructed long ago. The Stan's Header piece that replaced it has been excellent.
I wouldn't use their oil pan because it has no baffling - Subaru put it there for a reason...
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7.5 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
baltik
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2015
Posts: 441
|
| Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:20 pm Post subject: Re: Folks who have used the Small Car kit for the Subaru 2.5 swap... |
|
|
| For those of you that have compared these mounting systems head to head - I have read that the smallcar/stock moustache bar provides better ground clearance than the RMW/KEP carriers? For those of us with syncros that enter challenging terrain - is there an advantage of one system vs another? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bbaca75
Samba Member
Joined: July 04, 2013
Posts: 36
Location: Albuquerque, NM
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2025 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: Folks who have used the Small Car kit for the Subaru 2.5 swap... |
|
|
| baltik wrote: |
| For those of you that have compared these mounting systems head to head - I have read that the smallcar/stock moustache bar provides better ground clearance than the RMW/KEP carriers? For those of us with syncros that enter challenging terrain - is there an advantage of one system vs another? |
Did you ever get to the bottom of this? Does the smallcar kit provide better clearance? If so, do you know how much? I'm currently on the market for a subaru conversion kit for an 87 syncro full camper. I have an 02 Subaru 2.5l donor. I do a lot of offroading and would benefit from clearance help and using the original skid plates. Thanks!
_________________
-------
Current van:
'87 Westy full camper A/T
Old vans:
'87 Westy full camper (subaru 2.2l) M/T - SOLD
'86 Syncro high top camper M/T - SOLD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pbrown
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2008
Posts: 489
Location: Seattle, WA
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2025 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Folks who have used the Small Car kit for the Subaru 2.5 swap... |
|
|
| bbaca75 wrote: |
| baltik wrote: |
| For those of you that have compared these mounting systems head to head - I have read that the smallcar/stock moustache bar provides better ground clearance than the RMW/KEP carriers? For those of us with syncros that enter challenging terrain - is there an advantage of one system vs another? |
Did you ever get to the bottom of this? Does the smallcar kit provide better clearance? If so, do you know how much? I'm currently on the market for a subaru conversion kit for an 87 syncro full camper. I have an 02 Subaru 2.5l donor. I do a lot of offroading and would benefit from clearance help and using the original skid plates. Thanks! |
The issue is that the transaxle mounts stay the same. Bringing the engine up at the rear would alter the working angle of the rear U-joint on the prop-shaft. This would introduce driveline vibration. The working angles of the front and rear U-joints need to be the same. Maybe it would be possible to adjust the front to match but I would recommend keeping the angles as close to stock as possible.
_________________
Patrick Brown
1986 Westy Syncro EJ25
Flickr --> https://flic.kr/s/aHsmQNUXEF |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
4Gears4Tires
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 4140
Location: MD
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2025 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Folks who have used the Small Car kit for the Subaru 2.5 swap... |
|
|
I would be really concerned if that is the case. You definitely do not want to add ground clearance by jacking up the rear of the drivetrain. You will 100% bend your transaxle nosecone.
I know because my Syncro came with a 2wd mustache bar. I figured it out and added 2" spacers to lower the engine, but when my trans was rebuilt it got a new nosecone. And a lot of other parts. The angle to the driveshaft from the front diff and the driveshaft to the trans needs to be exactly the same angle. +4 and -4 degrees if I remember correctly.
_________________
'87 Syncro Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition
'85 Westy Sciuridae Domus Edition |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 10616
Location: Western WA
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2025 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: Folks who have used the Small Car kit for the Subaru 2.5 swap... |
|
|
| bbaca75 wrote: |
Did you ever get to the bottom of this? Does the smallcar kit provide better clearance?
…..
I do a lot of offroading and would benefit from clearance help and using the original skid plates. Thanks! |
Smallcar engine mount is best because the original skid bars can be easily lengthened to fit.
The original skid bars can be modified to protect the Smallcar oilpan too.
Methinks any oilpan or exhaust protection for RMW or kennedy will be massive and look like a wheelchair lift or something hanging under the van. .
If ANYONE has been able to design ANY exhaust or oilpan protection for a RMW or Kennedy mounting, please post a photo.
In all these years I have never seen a single example.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, NEW oil rings (!) 2Peloquins, 3knobs, SyncroShop pressure-oiled pinion-bearing & GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox.
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered original gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
