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Synchromesh
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 Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2025 12:05 am Post subject: 411 VIN decoding |
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Ran into a strange Type 4 VIN. Pic below. I've been trying to decode that number using this website but there's nothing that starts with 460. For the record, this is a 1970 411LE, German market model. Any ideas on how to decode this VIN tag properly?
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wonkipop
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2025 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: 411 VIN decoding |
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pretty sure it goes like this.
someone will correct me if wrong.
914s used much the same sequencing.
first two numbers designate the model (model of type 4 it is).
if my memory serves me right a 46 is a variant.
41 is a two door. 42 is a four door. i think. going off memory.
and i think the RHD types also got a separate number.
somewhere in my files i had the list.
i know a 914 is a 47. and first two numbers of VIN correspond. always 47.
the third number is the year of the decade beginning 1970.
so a 70 model is 0
and so on. ie a 74 is 4.
so 460 = 411 variant 1970. |
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wonkipop
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| Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2025 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: 411 VIN decoding |
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found it in my files.
the first two numbers of model type were used in the first two numbers of vin.
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Synchromesh
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2025 10:45 am Post subject: Re: 411 VIN decoding |
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Thanks! That helps. I guess the rest of it is just the chassis serial number? Or is there an engine code in there as well?
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2025 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: 411 VIN decoding |
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| Synchromesh wrote: |
| Thanks! That helps. I guess the rest of it is just the chassis serial number? Or is there an engine code in there as well? |
Yes, the number to the right of the "fahrgest-Nr" 460 is the chassis number
460 pretty much lays out the "series" of the car. The "460 series" are all wagons/variants. Really its the "46 series".
The 420 or 42 series are all four door sedans and the 410 or 41 series are all two door sedans.
We know yours is a "46" from the upper left hand corner of the plate and the 460. The "0" in 460 means ....1970. According to other sites, the "S 89" in the top row of type "should" be the authorization/certificate number for your gasoline heater system.
2037938 is your chassis number. There were three production groups listed for 1970 in the production survey. Keep in mind the model year changes in August. These production survey numbers are in a really poor order in my parts book.
So:
In July of 1970 model year your vin # would have been something like 410 2100 000. The 0 in 410 designating 1970 model year
In August of 1970 (1971 model year starts) it would have been in the range of 411 2000 001. And again, the "1" at the end of 411 stands for 1971
In December of the year 1970 (model year 1971) we have VIN #'s range 411 2017.
So, what does the VIN # on your dash start with?
The engine number will be on the engine case stamped on the side of the square oil breather facing the rear of the car. So if you have at least the correct series of engine still in the car, it "should" be a "Z" or "W" series. Both are 1.7L. Both "should" be D-jet fuel injection.
If it is an actual 1970 model, it would be rare here (even more rare than the other 411 and 412 because they did not come here until 1971) and as you note is a 411 "LE" which signifies fuel injected. This means it is a "022" engine. If your car is very complete and has the original engine sheet metal, you may find letters painted on it like:
022:3 which is for an automatic transmission in a wagon/variant used in models 461 through 466
022:4 which is for a manual transmission in a wagon/variant used in models 461 through 466.
So....guessing from German market but yours is hopefully a manual transmission?
Post some pictures!
Ray |
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Synchromesh
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| Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2025 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: 411 VIN decoding |
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Thanks Ray! It is indeed a German market 1970 car with a manual. I know it's rare here. Sadly it's in pretty bad shape, I'm still on the fence whether I want to actually restore it or use it for parts. The complete manual transmission setup is present which should be good enough to convert a US-spec car providing I can find one with a good body.
I attached a pic. It doesn't look bad but it's quite crusty, interior is pretty beat up, paint is no good and engine is apart. It's also missing the FI. So now you see why I'm reluctant.
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rod_vw
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wagen19
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Posts: 864
Location: germany
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2025 8:24 am Post subject: Re: 411 VIN decoding |
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| Synchromesh wrote: |
Thanks Ray! It is indeed a German market 1970 car with a manual. I know it's rare here. Sadly it's in pretty bad shape, I'm still on the fence whether I want to actually restore it or use it for parts. The complete manual transmission setup is present which should be good enough to convert a US-spec car providing I can find one with a good body.
I attached a pic. It doesn't look bad but it's quite crusty, interior is pretty beat up, paint is no good and engine is apart. It's also missing the FI. So now you see why I'm reluctant.
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Do you have a birth certificate for that car, or the M-codes?
The front turn signals are the longer ones, which are at least not "standard" for german market. German cars that time had no parking lights inside of turn signals.
Can this car be made for american soldiers stationed in Germany, or something like that? Maybe a mix of US- and German market details, km speedo? |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23459
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2025 11:58 am Post subject: Re: 411 VIN decoding |
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| wagen19 wrote: |
| Synchromesh wrote: |
Thanks Ray! It is indeed a German market 1970 car with a manual. I know it's rare here. Sadly it's in pretty bad shape, I'm still on the fence whether I want to actually restore it or use it for parts. The complete manual transmission setup is present which should be good enough to convert a US-spec car providing I can find one with a good body.
I attached a pic. It doesn't look bad but it's quite crusty, interior is pretty beat up, paint is no good and engine is apart. It's also missing the FI. So now you see why I'm reluctant.
|
Do you have a birth certificate for that car, or the M-codes?
The front turn signals are the longer ones, which are at least not "standard" for german market. German cars that time had no parking lights inside of turn signals.
Can this car be made for american soldiers stationed in Germany, or something like that? Maybe a mix of US- and German market details, km speedo? |
Most probaby it is M-554 which is an "export model". These came with an odd mix of some European details but also equipped for other markets. The small white marker light by the antenna is not normal US spec....which would be M-553 which would have the side markers as part of the turn signal as you note.
Ray |
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wagen19
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Posts: 864
Location: germany
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| Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2025 11:39 pm Post subject: Re: 411 VIN decoding |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| wagen19 wrote: |
| Synchromesh wrote: |
Thanks Ray! It is indeed a German market 1970 car with a manual. I know it's rare here. Sadly it's in pretty bad shape, I'm still on the fence whether I want to actually restore it or use it for parts. The complete manual transmission setup is present which should be good enough to convert a US-spec car providing I can find one with a good body.
I attached a pic. It doesn't look bad but it's quite crusty, interior is pretty beat up, paint is no good and engine is apart. It's also missing the FI. So now you see why I'm reluctant.
|
Do you have a birth certificate for that car, or the M-codes?
The front turn signals are the longer ones, which are at least not "standard" for german market. German cars that time had no parking lights inside of turn signals.
Can this car be made for american soldiers stationed in Germany, or something like that? Maybe a mix of US- and German market details, km speedo? |
Most probaby it is M-554 which is an "export model". These came with an odd mix of some European details but also equipped for other markets. The small white marker light by the antenna is not normal US spec....which would be M-553 which would have the side markers as part of the turn signal as you note.
Ray |
The side marker near the antenna can be a faded out red/white parking light from "L - edition", the same as for type 3. Or there are side turn signals for Italy market. It´s still unclear for me. |
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2025 8:09 am Post subject: Re: 411 VIN decoding |
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| wagen19 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| wagen19 wrote: |
| Synchromesh wrote: |
Thanks Ray! It is indeed a German market 1970 car with a manual. I know it's rare here. Sadly it's in pretty bad shape, I'm still on the fence whether I want to actually restore it or use it for parts. The complete manual transmission setup is present which should be good enough to convert a US-spec car providing I can find one with a good body.
I attached a pic. It doesn't look bad but it's quite crusty, interior is pretty beat up, paint is no good and engine is apart. It's also missing the FI. So now you see why I'm reluctant.
|
Do you have a birth certificate for that car, or the M-codes?
The front turn signals are the longer ones, which are at least not "standard" for german market. German cars that time had no parking lights inside of turn signals.
Can this car be made for american soldiers stationed in Germany, or something like that? Maybe a mix of US- and German market details, km speedo? |
Most probaby it is M-554 which is an "export model". These came with an odd mix of some European details but also equipped for other markets. The small white marker light by the antenna is not normal US spec....which would be M-553 which would have the side markers as part of the turn signal as you note.
Ray |
The side marker near the antenna can be a faded out red/white parking light from "L - edition", the same as for type 3. Or there are side turn signals for Italy market. It´s still unclear for me. |
Yes, I was thinking about the Italy.... lear signals....I think that is M-34....but from my understanding the Italian ones had complete turn signals that were clear and not just marker lights.
It is probably a "tourist" vehicle....picked up in Germany and shipped to US.
Mine is a tourist vehicle. It was picked up in Frankfurt, driven by a Canadian Air Force officer for about a year and a half in Germany and France. Then shipped to Oslo Norway where it was driven by a school teacher in Norway. From there shipped to North Carolina where it was sold.
These tourist vehicles have an odd mix of equipment. They have just enough European equipment to make them legal to drive but have a few critical parts to also make them DOT legal for their final destination. Ray |
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Synchromesh
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Posts: 328
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2025 12:48 am Post subject: Re: 411 VIN decoding |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Yes, I was thinking about the Italy.... lear signals....I think that is M-34....but from my understanding the Italian ones had complete turn signals that were clear and not just marker lights.
It is probably a "tourist" vehicle....picked up in Germany and shipped to US.
Mine is a tourist vehicle. It was picked up in Frankfurt, driven by a Canadian Air Force officer for about a year and a half in Germany and France. Then shipped to Oslo Norway where it was driven by a school teacher in Norway. From there shipped to North Carolina where it was sold.
These tourist vehicles have an odd mix of equipment. They have just enough European equipment to make them legal to drive but have a few critical parts to also make them DOT legal for their final destination. Ray |
From what I gather it came to the US from Germany in 1986 so I'm pretty sure it's not a US market car. It doesn't have a door sticker and has all of the Euro lights along with an 411 LE badge on the back.
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Last edited by Synchromesh on Thu Dec 04, 2025 11:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2025 6:34 am Post subject: Re: 411 VIN decoding |
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| Synchromesh wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Yes, I was thinking about the Italy.... lear signals....I think that is M-34....but from my understanding the Italian ones had complete turn signals that were clear and not just marker lights.
It is probably a "tourist" vehicle....picked up in Germany and shipped to US.
Mine is a tourist vehicle. It was picked up in Frankfurt, driven by a Canadian Air Force officer for about a year and a half in Germany and France. Then shipped to Oslo Norway where it was driven by a school teacher in Norway. From there shipped to North Carolina where it was sold.
These tourist vehicles have an odd mix of equipment. They have just enough European equipment to make them legal to drive but have a few critical parts to also make them DOT legal for their final destination. Ray |
From what I gather it came to the US from Germany in 1986 so I'm pretty sure it's a US market car. It doesn't have a door sticker and has all of the Euro lights along with an 411 LE badge on the back. |
Well....technically it could not "originally" have been a US market car because its a 1970 model. There were no 1970 US models. The US did not get the type 4 car until model year 1971.
So, that means it was a European model that was equipped at production to eventually go to either the US or Canada.
If it was US equipped.....that generally denotes a special order vehicle to be picked up by the owner.....a tourist vehicle. There were off and on programs that allowed doing this. If it was equipped for Canada it was what was called a "gray market" vehicle.
Because it is a manual transmission, I am betting it was equipped for Canada. Ray |
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Synchromesh
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Joined: April 14, 2014
Posts: 328
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2025 11:39 pm Post subject: Re: 411 VIN decoding |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Synchromesh wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Yes, I was thinking about the Italy.... lear signals....I think that is M-34....but from my understanding the Italian ones had complete turn signals that were clear and not just marker lights.
It is probably a "tourist" vehicle....picked up in Germany and shipped to US.
Mine is a tourist vehicle. It was picked up in Frankfurt, driven by a Canadian Air Force officer for about a year and a half in Germany and France. Then shipped to Oslo Norway where it was driven by a school teacher in Norway. From there shipped to North Carolina where it was sold.
These tourist vehicles have an odd mix of equipment. They have just enough European equipment to make them legal to drive but have a few critical parts to also make them DOT legal for their final destination. Ray |
From what I gather it came to the US from Germany in 1986 so I'm pretty sure it's a US market car. It doesn't have a door sticker and has all of the Euro lights along with an 411 LE badge on the back. |
Well....technically it could not "originally" have been a US market car because its a 1970 model. There were no 1970 US models. The US did not get the type 4 car until model year 1971.
So, that means it was a European model that was equipped at production to eventually go to either the US or Canada.
If it was US equipped.....that generally denotes a special order vehicle to be picked up by the owner.....a tourist vehicle. There were off and on programs that allowed doing this. If it was equipped for Canada it was what was called a "gray market" vehicle.
Because it is a manual transmission, I am betting it was equipped for Canada. Ray |
Why would it have Euro lights on front fenders then? I think the speedo is in km/h too which maybe appropriate for Canada but definitely not for US. I'm pretty sure this is a Euro market car though.
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wagen19
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Posts: 864
Location: germany
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2025 12:49 am Post subject: Re: 411 VIN decoding |
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| Synchromesh wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Synchromesh wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Yes, I was thinking about the Italy.... lear signals....I think that is M-34....but from my understanding the Italian ones had complete turn signals that were clear and not just marker lights.
It is probably a "tourist" vehicle....picked up in Germany and shipped to US.
Mine is a tourist vehicle. It was picked up in Frankfurt, driven by a Canadian Air Force officer for about a year and a half in Germany and France. Then shipped to Oslo Norway where it was driven by a school teacher in Norway. From there shipped to North Carolina where it was sold.
These tourist vehicles have an odd mix of equipment. They have just enough European equipment to make them legal to drive but have a few critical parts to also make them DOT legal for their final destination. Ray |
From what I gather it came to the US from Germany in 1986 so I'm pretty sure it's a US market car. It doesn't have a door sticker and has all of the Euro lights along with an 411 LE badge on the back. |
Well....technically it could not "originally" have been a US market car because its a 1970 model. There were no 1970 US models. The US did not get the type 4 car until model year 1971.
So, that means it was a European model that was equipped at production to eventually go to either the US or Canada.
If it was US equipped.....that generally denotes a special order vehicle to be picked up by the owner.....a tourist vehicle. There were off and on programs that allowed doing this. If it was equipped for Canada it was what was called a "gray market" vehicle.
Because it is a manual transmission, I am betting it was equipped for Canada. Ray |
Why would it have Euro lights on front fenders then? I think the speedo is in km/h too which maybe appropriate for Canada but definitely not for US. I'm pretty sure this is a Euro market car though. |
A birthcertificate is an invest!
Speedo and lights are "easy to bolt on" details. What date is the speedo stamped? |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23459
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2025 6:24 am Post subject: Re: 411 VIN decoding |
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| wagen19 wrote: |
| Synchromesh wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Synchromesh wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Yes, I was thinking about the Italy.... lear signals....I think that is M-34....but from my understanding the Italian ones had complete turn signals that were clear and not just marker lights.
It is probably a "tourist" vehicle....picked up in Germany and shipped to US.
Mine is a tourist vehicle. It was picked up in Frankfurt, driven by a Canadian Air Force officer for about a year and a half in Germany and France. Then shipped to Oslo Norway where it was driven by a school teacher in Norway. From there shipped to North Carolina where it was sold.
These tourist vehicles have an odd mix of equipment. They have just enough European equipment to make them legal to drive but have a few critical parts to also make them DOT legal for their final destination. Ray |
From what I gather it came to the US from Germany in 1986 so I'm pretty sure it's a US market car. It doesn't have a door sticker and has all of the Euro lights along with an 411 LE badge on the back. |
Well....technically it could not "originally" have been a US market car because its a 1970 model. There were no 1970 US models. The US did not get the type 4 car until model year 1971.
So, that means it was a European model that was equipped at production to eventually go to either the US or Canada.
If it was US equipped.....that generally denotes a special order vehicle to be picked up by the owner.....a tourist vehicle. There were off and on programs that allowed doing this. If it was equipped for Canada it was what was called a "gray market" vehicle.
Because it is a manual transmission, I am betting it was equipped for Canada. Ray |
Why would it have Euro lights on front fenders then? I think the speedo is in km/h too which maybe appropriate for Canada but definitely not for US. I'm pretty sure this is a Euro market car though. |
A birthcertificate is an invest!
Speedo and lights are "easy to bolt on" details. What date is the speedo stamped? |
Yes....this^^^^^
We are stating the same thing Synchromesh! Yes....while I believe as you do that it was built as a European market car.....there are some small details that Wagen19 has pointed out that are NOT European market but are US market. And he is correct that those details are not difficult to add at the dealer level.
However, if it was 1986 when those details were added.....it would have been virtually impossible to add them in the US by 1986. The dealers had almost nothing for these cars in the US by 1986. I think Euro dealers could have still done so by 1986.
What I am also pointing out is that if the car were ordered and picked up in Europe by the original owner....and it was destined to eventually go to the US at some later date.....it could be equipped for both markets at production. My car was done this way.
There are also a few other details on later cars that signal US target market as well.
Ray |
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wagen19
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Joined: November 16, 2007
Posts: 864
Location: germany
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2025 2:35 am Post subject: Re: 411 VIN decoding |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| wagen19 wrote: |
| Synchromesh wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| Synchromesh wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Yes, I was thinking about the Italy.... lear signals....I think that is M-34....but from my understanding the Italian ones had complete turn signals that were clear and not just marker lights.
It is probably a "tourist" vehicle....picked up in Germany and shipped to US.
Mine is a tourist vehicle. It was picked up in Frankfurt, driven by a Canadian Air Force officer for about a year and a half in Germany and France. Then shipped to Oslo Norway where it was driven by a school teacher in Norway. From there shipped to North Carolina where it was sold.
These tourist vehicles have an odd mix of equipment. They have just enough European equipment to make them legal to drive but have a few critical parts to also make them DOT legal for their final destination. Ray |
From what I gather it came to the US from Germany in 1986 so I'm pretty sure it's a US market car. It doesn't have a door sticker and has all of the Euro lights along with an 411 LE badge on the back. |
Well....technically it could not "originally" have been a US market car because its a 1970 model. There were no 1970 US models. The US did not get the type 4 car until model year 1971.
So, that means it was a European model that was equipped at production to eventually go to either the US or Canada.
If it was US equipped.....that generally denotes a special order vehicle to be picked up by the owner.....a tourist vehicle. There were off and on programs that allowed doing this. If it was equipped for Canada it was what was called a "gray market" vehicle.
Because it is a manual transmission, I am betting it was equipped for Canada. Ray |
Why would it have Euro lights on front fenders then? I think the speedo is in km/h too which maybe appropriate for Canada but definitely not for US. I'm pretty sure this is a Euro market car though. |
A birthcertificate is an invest!
Speedo and lights are "easy to bolt on" details. What date is the speedo stamped? |
Yes....this^^^^^
We are stating the same thing Synchromesh! Yes....while I believe as you do that it was built as a European market car.....there are some small details that Wagen19 has pointed out that are NOT European market but are US market. And he is correct that those details are not difficult to add at the dealer level.
However, if it was 1986 when those details were added.....it would have been virtually impossible to add them in the US by 1986. The dealers had almost nothing for these cars in the US by 1986. I think Euro dealers could have still done so by 1986.
What I am also pointing out is that if the car were ordered and picked up in Europe by the original owner....and it was destined to eventually go to the US at some later date.....it could be equipped for both markets at production. My car was done this way.
There are also a few other details on later cars that signal US target market as well.
Ray |
Following the theory, that the speedo (and clock?) was eventually replaced later by dealer or someone else, maybe in 1986, (with new or used parts?) which design are that instruments NOW?
For type 4, 411 and 412 there were many differeces in size of numbers, style of outer rings, and style of speedo needle.
Not only that. At least in Germany for km-speedos of new factory cars, there is a difference in "Wegdrehzahl" between (type 41 + 42) AND type 46 because of a different size or tires.
While the type 46 allways was equipped with 165 tires the Wegdrehzahl is 0,51, the type 41 and 42 had as "standard" tires 155 only and speedos with Wegdrehzahl 0,525.
There are early speedos with 160 km/h, 170 km/h and later ones with 190 km/h.
So for speedos we have type 46 "Variant-speedos" beside "Limousine-speedos" AND all differences over the years for both types of that speedos.
A pic of speedo AND clock would help to find out, if the instruments CAN be correct for model year 1970.
For the moment, I don´t know, what kind of "new spare speedos" had been available at the dealers that times and if ever someone noticed the difference of 0,51 and 0,525 or was interested in.
And again, at least the longer front turnsignals of that car in question, are not "standard" for Germany and many other european countries. |
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raygreenwood
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| Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2025 5:41 am Post subject: Re: 411 VIN decoding |
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I am not saying that the speedometers were replaced at all. In my last post I was speaking of the externally obvious safety features like the marker lights and turn signals.
But the question of what instruments it has and if the dates match is good.
However, from what I can find, it was not yet a 100% requirement in 1970 to have speedometers in miles in the US.
Ray |
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