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SixVolt
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1147
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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 Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2025 1:56 pm Post subject: 40HP, 53HP, and 60HP in an Oval |
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There are threads covering the tin and transmission issues with an engine upgrade like these:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=43360&highlight=1600+in+oval
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=364507&highlight=1600+in+oval
But what does it take in terms of install issues to get a bigger engine in an oval? Let's assume the 6V/12V bell housing is not an issue. Just the physical issues of getting the bigger engine installed.
1. Can fresh air heater boxes (HE) go on before the install?
2. Or do you have to leave them off until the engine is in?
3. Any issues with bolting heater boxes (HE) on after then engine install?
3. Can the fan shroud and generator be on without the generator belt pulley at install?
4. Is the 1200 40HP easier to get in than the 53HP 1500 or the 60HP 1600? |
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Snort
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2025 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: 40HP, 53HP, and 60HP in an Oval |
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| SixVolt wrote: |
1. Can fresh air heater boxes (HE) go on before the install?
2. Or do you have to leave them off until the engine is in?
Must be installed with engine in.
3. Any issues with bolting heater boxes (HE) on after then engine install?
No.
3. Can the fan shroud and generator be on without the generator belt pulley at install?
Fan shroud on, generator on, pulley touch and go depending on skill and any apron abnormalities. Generator armature is more the thing to watch carefully but it will just make it at the right angle.
4. Is the 1200 40HP easier to get in than the 53HP 1500 or the 60HP 1600?
Stale air 40hp heater boxes can stay on when installing the engine, possibly exhaust on too can't remember this detail. Other than that 40/1300/1500/1600 are all the same size front to back. 1300 and up are wider left to right so the valve cover on the right is best left off.
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trilogymac
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Joined: January 15, 2011
Posts: 36
Location: MI
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2025 5:44 am Post subject: Re: 40HP, 53HP, and 60HP in an Oval |
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the issues with installing a 40hp in my oval have been the heat riser tubes, distributor and the crank pulley. I remove my decklid so the shroud/gen, intake and pulley can be installed after the engine is in. I loosen the distributor and rotate it so the vacuum is out of the way. Best solution I have found so far.
Hope this helps. I have no heater boxes, just j tubes. |
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SixVolt
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2004
Posts: 1147
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2025 5:53 am Post subject: Re: 40HP, 53HP, and 60HP in an Oval |
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| Thanks for this information. Pays to ask before diving in. |
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Rome
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 10728
Location: Pearl River, NY
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2025 5:15 am Post subject: Re: 40HP, 53HP, and 60HP in an Oval |
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| 3a. Any issues with bolting heater boxes (HE) on after then engine install? |
I had one, when installing a 1600 single-port into my '56 Beetle that still had its original H apron. Of the 4 nuts that hold the front of the heater boxes to the 2 heads, the 2 nuts on the right HE were nearly impossible to reach. IIRC from over 35 yrs ago, the upper nut can be more easily installed after removing the starter so that your shorty box-end wrench has enough "swing space". The lower nut was terrible, needing a curved box-end wrench such as the one for the carburetor's front fastening nut; which enabled only approx. 1/8 arc until the wrench hit either the body or the transmission housing edge.
Note: If the oval you're working on has a later, "40 hp and later" ('61 thru '66) rear apron, you'll be able to keep the generator pulley and distributor on. The later apron comes down lower along its top edge than the H apron, so that you have slightly more room/clearance front to rear. But you'll still have the issue of insufficient space for the HE due to the bottom edge of the firewall coming down lower than on fresh air model years. |
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Bub
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 1329
Location: Central Washington
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:39 am Post subject: Re: 40HP, 53HP, and 60HP in an Oval |
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This would have been nice to know in the 90's. At the shop I worked at we'd routinely install a 1600 engfine complete into an oval, heater boxes and all. Just like any other install, don't ask me how, I remember it really sucked usually.
I think removing the lower engine mounting studs and going STEEP angle on the input shaft. I was a kid, it was just how I was told to do it..and I did it.
But our engine 'break in procedure' was 20 mile round trip on the highway at 3500rpm. And I never once remember setting deck height..you know that shop. There's one in every little town.
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mkhanshaw
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2017
Posts: 119
Location: CA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2025 11:53 am Post subject: Re: 40HP, 53HP, and 60HP in an Oval |
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Oh man I am glad this came up.
I have a 54 and just had the original apron metal welded back in because I wanted to appearance of original without the pea-shooter cutouts.
That said, I am building a 2332 dual 48 IDA monster to go in it.
I know I will have to re-cut sheet metal to clear it but want to do it right so tin seals where they should.
Here is my pan I just finished https://www.youtube.com/shorts/b8BX9vcgzyU
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esde
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 6387
Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2025 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: 40HP, 53HP, and 60HP in an Oval |
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Just had this discussion at the all air cooled show in Flanders NJ
To get the engine in, as noted above, the distributor needs to be at least clocked to the side, (if it has a vac advance can), and you need to have the belt removed..
IF you have heater boxes, you either need to
-remove them 
-cut the firewall section that hangs below the seal channel. The 36hp engine heater connections are smaller than the 1500/1600 style, and the later ones will not slip in at the angle you can get
Once you have the firewall thing sorted... the engine will fit over the input shaft if you slide it all the way back, literally the rear seal channel will be just above the rear pulley, which is why you remove the belt. Depending on the muffler, it may be banging into the underside of the rear apron as you raise the engine and shove t forward... 
It will go but it is not as easy as some people make it out to be. Your new rear tin will be a raggedy snippet of the original. It needs to be trimmed everywhere.
But it all does go, if you are patient, and have a good index of swear jar words.
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Last edited by esde on Tue Sep 23, 2025 4:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kintail
Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2003
Posts: 820
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2025 2:53 am Post subject: Re: 40HP, 53HP, and 60HP in an Oval |
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40 hp was recentlyremoved from my oval to be replaced by a 36 hp.
All the upper sheet metal removed, including rear engine lid and hinge/body mounts. Muffler left on but PO had pounded out rear apron underside so no interference. Stale heater boxes were left on to pull the motor and also noted small notch in right side engine seal channel to clear that heater box.
Rear engine apron tin had been jammed in to rear crank pulley tin and had some bad cutting to 'fit'.
Conclusion.... definitely some fitment issues.
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Scott
August 1954 Beetle Canadian Deluxe |
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Rome
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 10728
Location: Pearl River, NY
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2025 3:37 am Post subject: Re: 40HP, 53HP, and 60HP in an Oval |
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| mkhanshaw wrote: |
Oh man I am glad this came up.
I have a 54 and just had the original apron metal welded back in because I wanted to appearance of original without the pea-shooter cutouts.
That said, I am building a 2332 dual 48 IDA monster to go in it.
I know I will have to re-cut sheet metal to clear it but want to do it right so tin seals where they should. |
Too bad that you welded your original apron back in place, instead of keeping it removable. Having the entire rear apron structure including its upper channel for the rubber weatherseal off the car will make fitting the engine much easier, as nearly nothing will need to be removed from the engine.
fredybear just installed a removable, later style apron on his '55 in his thread, but did not provide any installation details. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=773219&start=100
I was also at the Flanders VW meet in New Jersey (aka the Aircooled Gathering) which esde wrote about above; and discussing the hi-po engines in the various early cars in the show with him. Back when I installed a simple 1600 into my '56 Beetle in the late 1980's, I also remember fitting J-pipes before the engine installation just to keep the engine steadier on the jack and its support block. I "think" i had a 4-into1 header fitted to link up with the J-pipes but there was no muffler on the header for the engine installation. The muffler- I swapped the header for a 1600 style stock muffler with taper tips- went on only after the engine was in place, and the heater boxes fitted.
I remember attending a VW meet in the late 1990's in Las Vegas, Nevada where I saw a highly modified split window Beetle- a Zwitter- owned by Steve Beecher. He had not only a large dual-carbed engine in it, but had fitted a Porsche 5-speed transmission which was slightly longer than a Beetle transmission. So with his H apron he had the additional challenge to fit the engine in with even less working space due to the trans' extra length, even if it was only less than an inch.
And I forgot about making a wedge-shaped notch into the right quarter panel's bottom edge to clear the valve cover for removal- I'm nearly positive that I had to do that to my oval as well.
So you're really asking for a LOT of extra work to fit that 2332 into your '54!
The VW restoration business Classic VW Bugs is about 20 minutes from my home, and I'd stop by every few months to see that the team was working on. I remember them preparing an oval window Beetle for a customer who wanted a slightly bigger engine (1641 cc, IIRC), though still with a stock single carb and fresh air style heater boxes. The Beetle kept its H apron. So I asked Chris Jr. how he fitted the engine due to the clearance issues which I had experienced years ago; and his solution was simple- his shop has a 2 or 4-post vehicle lift, so that he placed the body straight down onto the assembled chassis with its engine. Firewall bottom edge and apron clearance issues were thereby avoided.  Yes, he still had to cut down the engine's rar breast plate, but that was very easy. Per esde's comment, there is a photo of a cut line for a later breast plate in the "How to hotrod VW engines" book (Bill Fisher). |
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mkhanshaw
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2017
Posts: 119
Location: CA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2025 7:59 am Post subject: Re: 40HP, 53HP, and 60HP in an Oval |
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| Rome wrote: |
| mkhanshaw wrote: |
Oh man I am glad this came up.
I have a 54 and just had the original apron metal welded back in because I wanted to appearance of original without the pea-shooter cutouts.
That said, I am building a 2332 dual 48 IDA monster to go in it.
I know I will have to re-cut sheet metal to clear it but want to do it right so tin seals where they should. |
Too bad that you welded your original apron back in place, instead of keeping it removable. Having the entire rear apron structure including its upper channel for the rubber weatherseal off the car will make fitting the engine much easier, as nearly nothing will need to be removed from the engine.
fredybear just installed a removable, later style apron on his '55 in his thread, but did not provide any installation details. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=773219&start=100
I was also at the Flanders VW meet in New Jersey (aka the Aircooled Gathering) which esde wrote about above; and discussing the hi-po engines in the various early cars in the show with him. Back when I installed a simple 1600 into my '56 Beetle in the late 1980's, I also remember fitting J-pipes before the engine installation just to keep the engine steadier on the jack and its support block. I "think" i had a 4-into1 header fitted to link up with the J-pipes but there was no muffler on the header for the engine installation. The muffler- I swapped the header for a 1600 style stock muffler with taper tips- went on only after the engine was in place, and the heater boxes fitted.
I remember attending a VW meet in the late 1990's in Las Vegas, Nevada where I saw a highly modified split window Beetle- a Zwitter- owned by Steve Beecher. He had not only a large dual-carbed engine in it, but had fitted a Porsche 5-speed transmission which was slightly longer than a Beetle transmission. So with his H apron he had the additional challenge to fit the engine in with even less working space due to the trans' extra length, even if it was only less than an inch.
And I forgot about making a wedge-shaped notch into the right quarter panel's bottom edge to clear the valve cover for removal- I'm nearly positive that I had to do that to my oval as well.
So you're really asking for a LOT of extra work to fit that 2332 into your '54!
The VW restoration business Classic VW Bugs is about 20 minutes from my home, and I'd stop by every few months to see that the team was working on. I remember them preparing an oval window Beetle for a customer who wanted a slightly bigger engine (1641 cc, IIRC), though still with a stock single carb and fresh air style heater boxes. The Beetle kept its H apron. So I asked Chris Jr. how he fitted the engine due to the clearance issues which I had experienced years ago; and his solution was simple- his shop has a 2 or 4-post vehicle lift, so that he placed the body straight down onto the assembled chassis with its engine. Firewall bottom edge and apron clearance issues were thereby avoided. Yes, he still had to cut down the engine's rar breast plate, but that was very easy. Per esde's comment, there is a photo of a cut line for a later breast plate in the "How to hotrod VW engines" book (Bill Fisher). |
Indeed a lot of work. I wish I would have thought of a removal apron. The body does have Weber Windows welded in now so at least re-installation of the carbs will be much easier. I can also put the motor on before the body too so maybe that will help. I do not have a two or four post lift but! I do have some QuickJack lifts and I bet with some clever tomfoolery/scaffolding with steel bar, I can fashion what I need to raise and lower the body to measure/cut.
Yes...a lot of work. The payoff should be great though I am hoping!
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esde
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Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 6387
Location: central rust belt
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esde
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007
Posts: 6387
Location: central rust belt
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2025 4:10 am Post subject: Re: 40HP, 53HP, and 60HP in an Oval |
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| mkhanshaw wrote: |
Indeed a lot of work. I wish I would have thought of a removal apron. The body does have Weber Windows welded in now so at least re-installation of the carbs will be much easier. I can also put the motor on before the body too so maybe that will help. I do not have a two or four post lift but! I do have some QuickJack lifts and I bet with some clever tomfoolery/scaffolding with steel bar, I can fashion what I need to raise and lower the body to measure/cut.
Yes...a lot of work. The payoff should be great though I am hoping! |
Well, if you decide to change your mind.. I drilled out all of the spot welds, and now use 4 screws per side, plus the few fender bolts. Takes a few minutes to dis assemble, but after that it is smooth sailing to pull a motor. When it is all back together you can;'t tell there are any modifications. 
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Dan Pedro
Samba Member
Joined: March 29, 2004
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2025 8:15 am Post subject: Re: 40HP, 53HP, and 60HP in an Oval |
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| I had an early '55 for years with a 1600 with dual carbs, a header and heater boxes. I did no trimming but left carbs, and breast plate off during install. I broke the original crash box and replaced with a later trans but never modified the body or chassis in any way...that would have been a deal breaker for me as the car was 100% stock other than the powertrain since it was my daily. That engine was in and out a few times, pre internet I didn't know it "didn't fit." |
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martisan33
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Joined: December 11, 2013
Posts: 21
Location: Cleveland OH
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| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2025 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: 40HP, 53HP, and 60HP in an Oval |
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| I had a 1641 in my 56 for many years, not knowing better it went in and out completely assembled including muffler. A bunch of wiggling. Last year it died and I installed a S90 in it. Luckily the car isn't that clean, I had to beat up the side seal sheet metal, and hack an unfortunate amount of the lower bumper mounts for valve cover clearance. |
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