German review of the new 411

[Elrick]

This popped up on my uTube thought it was interesting. You can pull up English translation for subtitles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaabOwxCHcw
_________________
'63 Ghia, '75 BMW 2002

[Rome]

I took this screen shot in my gallery from that video.

I'm glad that US-version 411's (by then, model year '71 & '72) had the quad headlamps instead of those original large single-piece "fish eye" ones- they look so much better, though the final style headlamps with the 412 were so much sleeker.

[raygreenwood]

This is a really interesting review video! Thank you for posting it!

It is kind of strikes me (style wise) like an episode of Secret Agent man or a Hitchcock movie in its black and white Euro “Film Noir” style!

Its been a busy week but I wanted to comment a little. My “review of the review”!

First, the kind of slightly to moderately negative review this car got here….I kind of agree with. But the comments in the YouTube video are worth reading as well.

I would bet that with close to 500,000+ miles spanning five 411 and 412 cars (1972 Alaska blue 411 four door automatic, 1972 Alaska blue 411 wagon auto swapped to 4 speed, 1972 primer painted 411 wagon auto swapped to 4 speed, 1973 gold four door 412 auto swapped to 4 peed and 1973 two door coupe 412 with 4 speed)…..that I have as much experience as any with the handling, ride characteristics, the differences in middle years 411 to 412 cars and the few mods that can make a difference.

The problems he is outlining (there are strengths and weaknesses) are partly due to the fact that the test car was a 1969 (pretty much the same as a 1968) and not quite as worked out from details I can see as even the 1971 model we first got here.

1. I like that he noted that the “heating problem” has been boldly addressed! That’s no lie!

2. The comment about the instrumentation not being fully resolved….yes. While the speedometer is great (I like the font and legibility of the middle years 411 and 412 a little better) there really should have been at minimum a tachometer instead of a clock and there could have been a small 2” clock in the dash down near the glove box or in the glove box lid. Kienzle and VDO both made such clocks for numerous Mercedes in the same years.

3. Yes….the issues with the clutch and brake pedal spacing I have noticed. I will be installing a clutch rest “dead pedal” of some kind for mind at some point but the issue is that they are a little high off the floor for classic “heel to toe” work.

I was thinking about the pedal height a little more and I am betting that looking at the pedal cluster, it would not be that hard to slot a few holes, add a few spacers and bring the pedal cluster down maybe an inch or so.

Not mentioned in the review but a fact, the early cars like that had the 22.25mm clutch slave cylinder. I have never driven one of those but by all of my calculations its should have almost exactly 2X the clutch pedal tension as the later models like mine with the 44.5mm clutch slave.

In the later cars with the larger 44.5mm slave cylinder, the clutch pedal effort is stupidly light. It has little to no “break point” feel. You get used to it….but the closest similarity to it I ever experienced and it was before I got into a 412 with a manual transmission….was in an early 1980’s Datsun/Nissan 280ZX. I was a Valet while I was in college and I parked and played in quite a few of these (great cars). They had feather light clutches just like the later 411 and 412 cars and until you got used to them, it was very easy to stall taking off from a standing start.

I “think” VW was doing the same thing that Datsun/Nissan was doing. The 411and 412 were supposed to be “upscale”, more luxurious, read that as softer. The word “creampuff” comes to mind!

I would bet that the clutch slave was reengineered to be far softer so ANYONE could drive one and have it feel effortless. Nissan did the same thing with the 280ZX as you can see from this passage stolen from its Wikipedia page:

[wagen19]

With the first 411, there was something wrotten in the state of denmark, not to say, very much!
The new top end VW 411 came with an engine and engine case, that did not really fit the 914.
While Porsche and Bosch had nearly finished the modern 80 hp engine with D-jet (for type 3 D-jet also was already available), the 411 was rather weak and came with two carbs only.
Rather poor was shifting, braking, handling (no rear stabi) and due to mounts of engine and trans, a strong noise inside.
Very many people had thought, the "cyclope" 411 was ugly too.
For those who had payed big money for the new "top model 69", it was rather hard to find out, only one year later, their "new car" was old fashioned, loud and lazy beside the 411 E, which now also came as "variant".
I can remember the early 80´s, on junk yards, there were many early 411´s with low miles, around 50´km.
A pain and challenge was it, to lill engine oil in. It goes on...
That time, there was a lot of trouble at VW and Porsche because of the 914, the D-jet and that 411 carb engine. (and with that EA 266 mid engine prototype)
In 1969 Gunther Artz installed a 911 engine in a 411 type 42. (Panamera idea?)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artz
Also sporty went Ben Pon with the 411 in 1969. (sadly, pics deleted)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5841503
Many of that early 411had ended up very soon as successful auto cross "stockcars". (last Dudu film, only the first 5 minutes are interesting)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ghAIkhToAg
or at "Autoball" (no pics).
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoball
Nowadays, I guess, there are more original and drivable 1948 beetles around, than early VW 411´s from model year 1969.
(1948 Nordhoff beetle, 1968 Nordhoff (Lotz) 411, 1988 Passat 35i, around 2008 Passat B 6 and so on)

[wagen19]

[raygreenwood]

[wagen19]

Does someone know the original color and paint code of the 1969 Ben Pon Monte Carlo car, or color pics?
Is that car still in existence or history known about?

[jlrftype7]

Very entertaining, and from the period perspective, informative.
If we could only add voice -overs to the piece back then....
BUY all the hard to find parts NOW while they're still available...
Hoard Baby Hoard...
_________________
'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto

[Rome]

[wagen19]

Thanks rome for your help with pics.
Yes, I was several times at the Maikaefertreffen and also have seen the Artz 411/911.
Maybe you know something about 412 prototypes. I have a model 1974 type 46 with 75 HP. With just that car the "Typpruefung" at Kraftfahrtbundesamt at Flensburg was driven. That info I could get from the first owner, who worked at VW factory. Interesting is, that model 74 has still the older, up to 73 front shocks with 120 degree mounting side panels. No accident repair and first paint. According to spare books, all 1974 models should have new side panels and new front shocks from beginning. Vin is below 464 2 000 030, "AT" engine number is below number AT 000 015. Still having the original title, KFZ Brief and also the car, but up to now, no birth certificate.

Porsche Salzburg had some 411 and 412 Variants as Rally support cars. You or someone else have pics?

[Rome]

wagen, you certainly have an unusual '74 412; it could be considered from the "pilot production" in which series cars are assembled per final supplier parts and assembly line logistics, go through quality control final procedures, and may have been kept in company service for a year for short-term evaluation of the new components. This was done prior to the full-scale production start, and could've included Press vehicles. Then such a vehicle could've been sold to VW dealers as used vehicles (e.g., Hotz in Wolfsburg), thereby the introduction to customers.

Does your KFZ-Brief list the date of first registration? It was likely very close to the start of the 1974 model year on Aug. 1, 1973 which was a Wednesday.

I don't have any info on Porsche Salzburg's Type 4s. My direct involvement with Type 4 was when my dad started receiving them as company vehicles as of the '71 model year (first year for the US market), which was a step up from his '70 Type 3 Fastback. He had type 4 for a few years, always the 4-door Sedan; then was able to switch over to Audi Fox (Audi 80 in Europe) and Audi 100 LS. He also obtained at least 2 Type 4 for my mom's use, of which I learned to drive in one.

[wagen19]

Hello,

EDIT:
Very early first registration: no, just nearly the opposite.
Next thing: the orig. "Brief", title, has a date stamp from Jan 24, 1974, so many months later as the production date of that car.
First registration was Feb 06 1974. I was wondering just about that delay, not going along with the very early 1974 VIN 464 2 000 02x.
So I assume, the decision to bring the car on public roads was made in January 1974. In a german KFZ Brief (title) the number of ABE incl. actual addendums is stamped in. But when the new 74 models had been on their test runs for KBA, (when?), there still was no new ABE written and no Brief could be issued.
That was the main reason why I have tried to contact, finally successful, the first WOB-owner. He had something to do with the VW factory tools there. He was only 23 years old, when he got that marinogelb 412 L Variant. He remembered a holiday trip to scandinavia with his first wife. Inside the housing of airfilter, some small parts are looking like handmade. (engine number AT 000 011)
A GSR steering wheel and 5,5 x 15 ET 40 Lemmerz rims 1563-3 with 185/70 SR 15 tires were TUEV registrated March 18, 1976 (by second owner) and are still installed.
The first owner told me, the car was parked for some months in "Aservatenkammer" of factory, in case of KBA has questions again. He purchased it for rather cheap that times and used the car until Sept 18, 1975. Then he had sold it to a dealer at Nuernberg, Bavaria (Franconia!)
Interesting and the best thing is, that just that car with running and matching original engine and original Brief, document has survived more than 50 years, until today.

My uncle purchased 1971 a new silver 411 LE variant with blue velours seats. It was his first new car and was a great car for his family with 3 children. After the 411, he also got a new Audi 100 (Avant). His very first car was a used indigo blue model 60 ragtop export beetle with overrider bumpers.

To come back to topic, a perugreen 411 type 41 "cyclops" from end of May 1969 with matching V 040 19x engine and original german title is also still here.

[kgarchivinusa]

[wagen19]

[kgarchivinusa]

[wagen19]

Thank you again, I´m thinking the same.
If the three beetles have normal paint colors, they should be toga white L 90 C (type 115), royal red L 30 A and chinchilla L 70 F.

Thinking about history and development of the type 4 DESIGN and IMAGE.

1965 Renault 16 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_16
1965 VW type 3 , 1600 TL https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/VW_Typ_3
1966, 67 Tatra 603 - X prototypes https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&a...p;dpr=1.33
1968 VW type 4, 411 https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/VW_Typ_4
1973 VW type 32, Passat B1 (Dasher) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/VW_Passat_B1
1999 VW concept D prototype, > Phaeton https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/VW_Phaeton
2009 Porsche Panamera https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_Panamera

Interesting are the different sizes of tailgates and if there is a rear trunk or not.
Also interesting is the different image of Audi 80 and VW based "Audi" Fox station wagon and german VW Dasher (Passat).
For my understanding, the type 4, 411, 412 was placed above the type 3 and the Audi 80 and VW Dasher replaced the type 3.

The type 4 engines: at least all versions from late 1969 onwards with aluminium case (Si 12) have PORSCHE-DNA, because of the 914 (1,7 l - 2,0 l), (411 = 911?)
The 411 engine compartment was large enough, to accept a complete 911-engine (but then, there was no space left for a rear trunk above the engine)

With that idea it makes sense, that there never was a type 4 "fastback" as the typ3 TL with flat engine and rear trunk layout.

So my idea is, the "411" was consequently planned to become the new "First Class Family Volkswagen" with 911 6 cylinder engine.

The KdF Beetle with around 25 hp, engines 1,0 and 1,1 l and 2 doors made around 100 km/h top speed. I guess, it was planned, the 411 with 4 doors was planned for top speed of around 200 km/h.
The 2,2 l 911 E and S-engines with 155 and 180 hp had enough potential for that idea. We know, the 911 engine had potential also for 250 hp later. Even a 901 trans with deep shift rod was not that hard to install.

Was this Nordhoffs gigantic DREAM? His personal new "Uber-Volkswagen"?

But back to the reality of the video. The question is, was a 411 with that performance still drivable and safe around 200 km/h top speed on windy roads?
And how about fuel consumption and price then? All hardly below 911 S level, I assume.
Still "VOLKSWAGEN-IMAGE" and "DNA", affordable by the public?

(some beers after and about 30 years later, there was a successful (?) 12 cylinder "Volkswagen" started. A rich and very shiny country this must be)

Only the model 1969 "V - engine" with carbs had the "VW-style" and cheaper magnesium case and 68 hp. That early engine had more VW-DNA an no FI. (but till 7´65 the beetle had 34 hp max and it also was an upgrade against the 54 hp of the type 3, with carbs or D-Jet FI)

Body styles:

Station wagons (Variant) was "good" for: type 3, type 32 Dasher and "Audi" Fox, type 4, 411+ 412,

No Station wagons for: german Audi 80 (B1, B2, B3), VW Phaeton and Porsche Panamera (still not).

"Notch-bodies" for the type 3, Audi 80, VW Passat (B2, Santana)

No "Notch-bodies" for: type 4, VW Passat (B1), Porsche Panamera

So finally I think, the 411, type 4 had no rear trunk and no large tailgate, because the type 4 was planned with 6 cylinder engines, most probably from the 911 and not as "Variant", station wagon.

[wagen19]

[wagen19]

[wagen19]