Thinking of trying to build an engine for my type 3

[dommer]

I guess I missed some updates, folks. I took your advice to heart, and am going with a milder engine. I was also advised that an important thing I need to do to keep the type 3 motor cool is to build custom tin which sits between the engine and exhaust, keeping the heat of the exhaust isolated from the bottom of the motor. So that's my plan. I do have a bit of a ace in the hole, because my neighbor is a bored retired mechanic who is helping me. He used to build NHRA hotrods as well. So that helps me a little bit, right?

I may end up in utter failure, this is true. But it'll be fun for you guys while it lasts, right?

The new engine is going to be an 1835. Standard stroke, 92mm bore. I've ordered a new universal case, made out of magnesium, as Mark (Mike? I'm terrible with names) at CB recommended this would be better to manage heat.

I'll keep you guys posted. Wish me luck. Or pray for failure. Just keep me in your prayers either way. I need it.

[Murt]

Enjoy the ride
All I can offer is CLEAN/Measure/Check, then do that again for as long as it takes. Never glue it up until you have built it out and you may need to do that at least 10 times but trust me it is worth it. I had never built an engine from scratch before and I asked a LOT of questions on here

_________________
1966 VW Beetle ‘Jules’
1967 Kombi Splitscreen ‘Barney’
2018 VW Caddy Maxi R Line
2017 Golf GTD saloon
2008 VW EOS 2.0 TFSi

[VWporscheGT3]

[Dangib]

read and follow prescottt philipps book some may seem odd but your less likely to forget or miss something. I read it front to back then felt comfortable to build a 1835 did it over a year took time watch vwjawbreakers vids and now got a great motor

[Dusty1]

[dommer]

CB was unfortunately out of stock on the main bearings, but I was able to get them from Dune Buggy Warehouse. Thanks for the tip, though. Seriously thanks to everyone for taking the time to offer me advice. I hope I can keep you all entertained however this goes.

[dommer]

It's been a 1 step forwards, 2 steps back month but I thought I might bump my thread up with an update.

I pulled the old, perfectly functioning 1600 out of the Type 3.

I got it up on an engine stand and removed the exhaust, shroud, tins and accessories. I brought the tins and shroud and some other parts up to Custom Coaters in Marietta, GA to have them all cleaned up and powder-coated, or for the exhaust headers, cerakoted. The powder coating is just to look cool, the cerakoting, combined with wrapping the headers, will be a part of my effort to manage heat in the 1835, as you guys have pointed out how hard it is to keep an engine in a Type 3 cool.

After getting the old engine disassembled down to the long block, I noticed that the intended new case was not going to work because it's for a Type 1, and thus there are (at least) 2 incompatibilities. First, the dipstick tube mount from my Type 3 has nowhere to connect to as Type 1 engines have a permanent dipstick tube machined into the case and Type 3's have a mount location. And second, and more importantly, the engine mounts on the Type 3 bolt to the front side of the case (the back side of the car) and there's no mounting bolts for this on a Type 1 case. So there's a waste of $600 on a case which doesn't fit for my build. I already was going to have some machine work done on the case, so I asked them if it made sense to machine the case to add in the mounting points and machine a mounting surface for my dipstick/oil filler, and they basically said it wouldn't be worth the time/money, but that it would be possible.

So I ordered a new case from CB. It's got the distinct advantage of being new, so less likely there's some crack somewhere. And being a universal case, it'll actually fit my car. It's got the unfortunate disadvantage of costing more than 2x as much as the original one which I've already paid for. But on the bright side, I learn lessons well when they cost me money.

I received the case, all machined for my specific needs last week. Yesterday was spent cleaning engine parts (the case, the crank, the cam, the enlarged oil sump, many others). For this I used a nylon brush, detergent in water, a pressure washer, and dried with shop air. I then tried to begin assembling the crank with the hope of ending yesterday with an assembled short block. This turned out to be wildly optimistic.

I keep finding myself in the situation where there's a key part which I need and don't have. Or a slightly different flavor: there's a part I need and have, but the one I have is wrong for my build. This happened again yesterday as I was attempting to build the crank, and realized I never got the 2 necessary woodruff keys.

I realize how much easier this would be if I lived in the west coast and could drive to JBugs or CB or ISP West or a dozen other air-cooled VW shops and just pick up parts. For me in Georgia where there's no real market that I know of for this stuff, I'm left with ordering the part online, paying what seems like very high shipping costs, and then having to wait through their very leisurely fulfillment process to hopefully get something shipped a week after I order it. So that's all pretty frustrating.

So I at least got to doing a bit of mocking, figuring out where the bearings go, scavenging the missing dowels for the bearings from the Type 1 case I can't use, and then doing some cam and crank assembly. I realize I'll need to clearance the thrust bearings for the cam because it's way too tight in there. I also had to do a little rudimentary case modification as one of my cam bearing bores didn't have a slot for the tab on the bearing, so I had to make one. I realized after mounting the cam to the cam gear that I didn't line the slot up with the timing mark on the gear, and so had to redo that. When I make those kinds of mistakes I wonder how many I'm going to make and never catch, and that's a bit concerning.

So yeah, slow progress, but progress nonetheless. Thanks for the read. Advice is, as always, much appreciated.

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[Erik G]

[Rob Combs]

Someone will probably be willing to take that case off your hands if it checks out good, so not a total loss.

Research how others set up their cam bearings before you start sanding the thrusts down. You've got to seat the cam, bearings, and case together before you start cutting down the thrusts, otherwise it's real easy to end up with too much end play.

Take your time, and triple check everything. Don't glue it together until you're ready for final assembly. I think I had my short block apart 10 times give or take before it was ready to assemble.

CB has a good little case hardware kit that comes in handy for all those little odds and ends that we tend to forget. And it has new oil control pistons and good springs, so that's a bonus.

They will also get your shipment moving really fast if you opt for expedited shipping. I know it's expensive, especially for heavy stuff and cross country delivery, but your order goes right to the front of the line. Whenever I go next day, if I get my order in early enough in the day, I have my parts the following day (I recognize I live a lot closer to CB than you do...).

Keep truckin along. You'll get it done.

[dommer]

[Murt]

@dommer
Just to echo Rob, on my very first engine build in Feb I trashed a good set of double thrust bearings by sanding too much off the thrusts, while trying to achieve the 'perfect end play' before proper install
Didn't have to touch the second set, I just gave firm taps with a rubber mallet front and back of the cam, and voila it ended up perfect
Just take your time brother.
Dave
_________________
1966 VW Beetle ‘Jules’
1967 Kombi Splitscreen ‘Barney’
2018 VW Caddy Maxi R Line
2017 Golf GTD saloon
2008 VW EOS 2.0 TFSi

[dommer]

So an update, some pretty pictures, and a solicitation for advice.

I've got the short block somewhat assembled, but I have 2 concerns. The first is I don't know if I've oriented the conrods correctly. I've seen that you're to use the little nib on the side of them to orient them. But mine don't have a nib. They're the UniTech from CB.

https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/1254.htm

They do have a number stamping on one side, though, which mates the cap to the rod. And they have "CB" embossed into them on one side and not the other. As far as I can tell, they're symmetrical otherwise.

If I orient them so that all of the "CB" stampings point towards the flywheel side of the motor or away from it, then the numbers are down on two of the cylinders and up on the other two. And if I align the conrods so that the numbers point up or down, then half of the "CB" stampings point forward and half point backward.

Some pictures to show what I mean.

Also, from videos I've watched I've seen it stated that the conrods should fall quickly on their own weight. Mine kind of do. Attaching a video to show the amount of play. The fellow I'm working on building the engine with says this is simply because of the assembly lube. It is really quite thick, it's Permatex Ultraslick. But I'm worried this isn't quite enough play.

What do you think? Too tight? My gut says the rod coming out of the bottom is too tight, while the one at the end of the video is fine. Neither bind up and they both move smoothly, but I'm not loving the one at the beginning of the video. Am I wrong?

Link


And then, some sexy time photos, check out the tins that I just got back from the metal coaters.


Link

[dommer]

So I think I figured it out. While my rods don't have "tits" they do have "tangs", which are on the side stamped with the numbers. So I need those all pointing down, so the CB stamping is 1 way for cylinders 1 and 2 and the other way for 3 and 4. Does that sound right?

[Brian_e]

Tits up tangs down. This is because the rods are offset.

On the rods feeling tight…..did you measure anything? You need to be measuring the oil clearance. There is NO way to tell by look or feel.

This is especially important with new main bearings in a new case. Just because it’s all new, and STD size DOES NOT mean they are correct….

Brian
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[Glenn]

[dommer]

[dommer]

So AI gave me this:

The connecting rod clearance (oil clearance) on a stock VW 1600 air-cooled engine is a critical measurement that dictates the thickness of the oil film between the connecting rod bearing and the crankshaft journal.

The standard specification for the connecting rod oil clearanceon a VW Type 1 (Beetle, Bus, Ghia, etc.) 1600cc engine is typically:

0.03 mm to .08 mm

or

0.0012 in to 0.0031 in


When rebuilding a VW engine, you must check two types of clearances for the connecting rods:

Connecting Rod Oil Clearance (Radial Clearance): This is the main concern, measured with Plastigage or a micrometer/bore gauge, and is the distance between the bearing shell and the crankshaft journal.

New Part: 0.03 mm to 0.08mm 0.0012 in to 0.0031 in


Connecting Rod Side Play (Axial Clearance): This is the gap between the sides of the rod (at the crankshaft end) and the cheeks of the crankshaft, measured with feeler gauges. This allows for oil to escape and prevents binding.

New Part:0.10 mm to 0.40 mm 0.004 in to 0.016 in

Do those numbers look right to you?

[dommer]

I called and spoke to Matt at CB Performance and he gave me all of the clearances to check for on the con rods. He also suggested the tightness was probably due to me having used assembly lube.

So after spending 3 hours plastiguaging everything, it was all spot-on. Kudos to CB Performance on the machine work. It was just a case of me being too heavy handed with the assembly lube.

I assembled the case and found that once I torqued down the 6 main bolts, the crank got way too hard to turn. Several hours of trying to figure that out resulted in me realizing I'd messed up and one of the bearings was misaligned, and so I've completely ruined the bearing. So that's a $100 lesson.

Another lesson is don't apply the case sealant until you're sure everything is right. That's really not fun to clean off.

The dowel pin indented the bearing enough to pinch the crank. I suppose I could sand it down, but I'm not going to do that, instead just ordering a new set of bearings.

Is it consensus that these are the "best" bearings to use? https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/mcmainbearings.htm Also, are they steel backed? A magnet doesn't seem to stick to it, which has me thinking it's entirely aluminum.

[67rustavenger]

A tough lesson to be learned the hard way.
When you get your new bearings. Place them in the 3-4 case half and mark them at the case parting line with a sharpie. That way you have a visual clue that the bearings are properly seated when you lay the crank.
When I lay a crank, I start at the #1 thrust bearing and work my way rearward until all the bearings are seated in the case.

I've used Clevite bearings with success. Murt is reporting that they may have some issues of late and has selected Klobershidt as a suitable bearing supplier.
YMMV.
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[Rob Combs]