Recommendation on teflon wrist pin buttons.

[58 Plastic Tub]

[Glenn]

I don't use them, but if you want to... i'll see you when you have a problem
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Member #1009

#BlueSquare

עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי

[Glenn]

[oprn]

Back in the '70's when Teflon pin buttons first came out in the VW magazines and flouted as the next hot tip I had a half a mind to try a set. I went so far as to buy a length of Teflon bar stock but my engines were running well so no need.

Then I got into water pumpers and family things and kind of forgot. I could have tried the in either of my last two engines but... out of sight out of mind. I do know where that bar stock is though but now again I have two engines that run just fine.

It may happen yet. I have a couple of cases and some decent used piston and cylinder sets. I honestly think they are not a bad idea in stock pistons. Saito has used them in their line of model aircraft engines for about 45 years.
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Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old!

[Rob Combs]

Whether smart, dumb, or neutral, I'm going to pop a set in the 1600 that I'm putting together. The pin bores got pretty beat up by the circlips and it didn't want to come apart without applying some pressure.

It'll be full flowed, and I drilled/chamfered holes in them even though I do see the point of questioning the entry of oil into a basically sealed wrist pin interior. Maybe my drillings will just give it a place to enter. Oh well...

If I were using new pistons I'd probably not use the pin buttons. Berg internal snap rings are cheaper and lighter.

[raygreenwood]

[Rob Combs]

Prevailing hypothesis is the rods may have been bent or twisted. Got some CB Unitechs to replace them because they are barely worth even checking any more. Really difficult to make the case to have them rebuilt and balanced, unless you have access to machine shop equipment.

That or the crank was in there doing the humpty dance. Wouldn't rule that out either.

Edit: I hear it's actually pretty common. Lots of threads on here about it.

[jim martin]

so was out in the shop today and remembering this topic I pulled the covers on some old engines on the back bench , now due to a past thread about jb weld which was great I have decided to be a little more forward as there is so much crap with no data to back it , which seams to be the norm on the samba .

so how about some real data with real pictures and results and take it any way you want .
2 motors first is a 76x90.5 that was assembled in the early 80's and was run for ever In everything from street cars, dune buggies and up and down the whistler hyway for years with teflon bushings and the second a 82 x94 street /drag motor that was run on the street and track pulling 11 sec passes on nitrous with solid aluminum buttons both of which show now signs of cylinder wear on either that is talked about here .
now pictures are not the best but you need to focus on the area where the teflon or aluminum buttons travel in the cylinder , no gouges or cylinder damage as talked about .
I have used these in so many more motors without issue I would love to see some photos of this so called cylinder wear , post them up .

this is the first time this piston has been pulled from this cylinder in 20 years

look at the finger this is the wrist pin travel , no issues

2275 from my engine build thread , stupid amount of milage and abuse

again no wear on cylinder walls

now I don't care what you think but here is 2 real world examples of both a high milage teflon button motor and a high milage aluminum button motor , you decide .
again just chucking it out , you decide .REAL DATA
personally I run either spirolocs on the street or buttons on a highly serviced motor .
also I have never had a failure with any of the 4 wrist pin securing methods ,and if you use the correct wrist pin with the correct clip and correct piston groove you will not either .
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[modok]

I believe it 100%
Done right buttons works well and it's nice setup.
But it's also true that

Any of that old stuff isn't lighter than a 2.5" piston win with round wire clips

Of course just because it works better.... goes faster..... being a PITA to rebuild does count for something.
Developing a sweet tooth for the sweat of slaves, is that how it goes? the more work it takes to do it.... the better it is? don't think so well not if your your own slave.
Being easy to rebuild is good for engines that blow up regularly and for learning as you go.
Which if done right IS fun

And how to retain a piston pin is a lesson that's been learned and forgotten and learned over again at twice already, I guess humanity is on round three or so.
piston guided? rod side clearance? hmmmm
.001" per 1 clearance......always works
Have faith in the holy truths we all agree on, and pursue your own path to happiness

[modok]

[BFB]

[oprn]

Huh! Fist I heard of aluminum buttons. Why not? The piston is aluminum...

As for clip damage to the pin bore, oh ya! Nearly every stock engine I have taken apart had raised ridges both sides of the clip that made the pins hard to remove.
_________________
Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old!

[RickS]

Dave Kawell recommended Teflon buttons to me 30 years ago. He also suggested that I center drill them. When people like this give advice, I listen.

[Rob Combs]

Thanks Jim for posting.

Your last statement about “correct piston [pin] groove” is where the trust in my piston pins goes out the window. Buttons solve that issue for me and give these pistons one more life.

[slayer61]

I got some pistons from MTC recently (motorcycle project) no clips or groove for them... just the Teflon buttons.

I trust them to know well enough.
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[jim martin]

digging deep .here is a tool I made to cut the raised section flush again so you can pull the wrist pin .
slides down the wrist pin bore with a cutter blade on it . better than beating the pins out . now you need to decide what method of pin retainer you will use

now here is something you may never see .
a spiroloc failure.
this was a very lucky catch that could of ended up real bad.
yep I missed it and I assumed that when you spend $1000 on a custom piston set and it was discussed and drafted up it would be correct combination .

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Sponsored by :
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KROC head porting services
Dialedinperformance.com
Airspeedparts.com topic http://airspeedparts.com/forums/index.php?topic=914.0

[jpaull]

Imagine how triggered some would be to hear of a engine running teflon buttons and type 3 cool tins. Plus a 30mm oil pump and no thermostat/flaps.

I bet the ones that are getting metal shavings or stuff embedded in their teflon buttons are also the ones that wait till their oil is nasty black before changing it.

Jims example is proof enough for me. You dont need 1,000 examples to prove/disprove. When its vetted for conditions surrounding the example, its a solid point.
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[oprn]

It is amazing what some guys do and get away with. But then one wonders how much the car is actually used and what for. I go to VW events and shake my head at some of the combinations and wonder how they put up with the results. Then I see them load it onto a trailer at the end of the event. It's the ones that drive away that I take seriously especially those from a distance away.

Four years ago I attended an event that these two cars were at. The engine builds were virtually IDENTICAL. The red one was a high dollar build by three young fellows. The blue one was built and owned by a 90 year old man. One came on a trailer and ran like a 2 cylinder John Deere missing on one cylinder. The other ran like a Swiss watch and had a history of having been driven all over Western Canada.

Guess which one drew the crowd!

I wish I had asked the old fellow more questions... I expect he is no longer with us.
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Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old!

[58 Plastic Tub]

Yep -- no good anybody under 80 years old gets into the hobby. They might not be curmudgeonly enough for this crowd.

I'm unsure of the relevance of the last post, oprn. How does this relate in any way to PTFE buttons?
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Stan Galat
"A single point in isolation is a reference point. Two points is a line. Three points is a trend. Trends don't lie."

[jim martin]

How bout theses buttons . Again not ptfe but goes along with my earlier post of failure and these are the replacement aluminum button version I am not anticipating any issue with these

_________________
B.C's fastest street legal vw , June 2006 Hot VW's feature car 9.81 sec at 145.26mph.
Sponsored by :
LUCAS OIL PRODUCTS http://www.lucasoil.com
KROC head porting services
Dialedinperformance.com
Airspeedparts.com topic http://airspeedparts.com/forums/index.php?topic=914.0