My 2007cc Bus Engine Build

[oprn]

I have often wondered how many of those failed projects are out there. Hundreds I suspect! If they don't stumble across someone knowledgeable they just collect dust and rust until the owner or a relative packs it all off to the scrapyard.
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Our cars get old, we get old but driving an old VW never gets old!

[Rob Combs]

[Murt]

I really do feel for him, he's the best part of $10k into a boat anchor and a couple of tote boxes.
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1966 VW Beetle ‘Jules’
1967 Kombi Splitscreen ‘Barney’
2018 VW Caddy Maxi R Line
2017 Golf GTD saloon
2008 VW EOS 2.0 TFSi

[Rob Combs]

Dave, you know enough by now you could probably really put that fella on the right path.

Unsolicited advice - have him keep that AMR in the box and either sell it on or save it for a smaller engine, after he's gotten some experience on the 1904.

If you run the calculations for how much air that AMR can move against how much a properly built 1904 can move, you'll see there's not really that much meat on the bone. An AMR on a 1904 will need to be oversped, which moves the air flow requirements to the extremes of the compressor map, maybe even off the map. That generates a lot of heat. And setting that AMR up to run, while looking like an easy path to power, will add a lot of layers of complexity that aren't immediately apparent. Things like ignition management, supercharger body & intake air temp management, etc. Building one to last gets complicated really fast.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but those AMRs were made for a Subaru with, IIRC, about 800c displacement and modern engine management. I could see an AMR working really well for that, and probably pretty satisfactorily up to about 1500cc, if set up properly.

BFB built a pretty cool one with his own mounting system. I'm not sure what displacement he put it on or how it worked out but he may have a different outlook on those than I do.

I won't veer any further off topic, I've made posts on how my own AMR project went wrong in other threads.

Not to volunteer you to save this guy, but if you have the ability to spend some time with that fella to coach him along, I'm sure all is not lost with his project gone awry. As long as he's willing to open his wallet a little further to bring it back to life.

[Murt]

Hi Rob
I hear you, and to be honest, I'm not keen on the AMR's

But anyway, I'm back on topic, and I think I have sorted the Geometry.....Finally.

Today was the day, I was determined to get it done, and armed with my iPad, so I could re-watch Brian's YouTube video (Thanks again Brian ), I set to work. I have 4 days into this now, about 4/5 hours a day, along with plenty of black coffee (Decaff) and a packet of Marlboro's

As I said earlier in this thread, I though I was close from the off, but that turned out to be a false flag.

Today finally, starting on the #1/2 side, case locked down at 9.5 degrees I ended up having to use 2 x 0.030" shims, as at one shim, I could only get 1.4 degrees at half lift. With 2 shims totalling 0.060" My Klein was hovering between 0.0 and 0.1 degrees at half lift (0.234.5). I was pretty happy with that, and measured the pushrod at 281.40mm (11.078")

I then disassembled and moved to the #3/4 side. I had a slightly different lift this time, 0.461 as opposed to 0.469 on the #1/2 side ??? Is this commonplace ?

Anyway, after setting up properly, I ended up with the same hover at half lift (0.230.5) on the Klein at 0.0 to 0.1 degrees.
I pulled the pushrod again, and measured at 280.52mm ( 11.0440") a difference of 0.034", and guess what. I think that I am happy with that.

The Adjusters look absolutely perpendicular to the valve stems, and they look almost perfect to the centreline of the rocker shaft

Strangely enough the pushrod length is almost within a hair of the CB set of pushrods rods I have here, bought by mistake as I though I had bought cut to length ones and I think I will be going to run with them, as originally was expecting to have to cut them down ?

Anyway, Could some of you peer check my work, and confirm that I haven't F upped again please,
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1966 VW Beetle ‘Jules’
1967 Kombi Splitscreen ‘Barney’
2018 VW Caddy Maxi R Line
2017 Golf GTD saloon
2008 VW EOS 2.0 TFSi

[Brian_e]

Run it!!

Good job taking the time to get it figured out correctly.

Brian
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So more or less the lazier and stupider you want to be, the nicer quality parts you need to buy.
-Modok

Narrowed beams, Drop adjustable spring plates, Bus disk brake and IRS kits.
www.type-emotorsports.com

Type E Engine Parts and Supplies
https://type-emotorsports.com/collections/engine-parts

[Alstrup]

Good.
- AMR´s are a relatively cheap power adder if you already have a healthy milder and lower compression 1600-1776. BUT, you need to be on top of both fuel and timing especially. Implemented right it can work well. BUT, once more, with a blower your overall fuel efficiency WILL suffer since you will have the parasitic drag from the blower all the time. If it is a weekend thingy, no problem. If you cover some distance with it, it ads up.
The instant power in just about all rpms from a super charger is nice though. Just know what you are getting into.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=435993

[BFB]

The AMR 500 is actually 500cc / revolution ( AMR 300 , 300cc / rev ) and they were made for use on i think it was like 1000 or 1100cc engines. So yeh even a 1600cc engine is pushing it but that doesnt mean you can use it on a larger engine, just wont get much boost. From what ive read they say 16k rpm max. From mathing it a person should be able to get 10-12lbs of boost on a 1600 but i dont think that works out the same in the real world. So all that said, ol boy with the 1904 could’ve gotten some boost but it shouldnt have been enough to cause damage to engine unless the engine was already a really high compression engine, which I doubt.

Murt, any idea what went bang on ol boys engine? Assume it wasnt torn down?
Could be something simple?
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"how am i supposed to torque the rear wheel nut to 250 ft lbs??? " - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
Most experts aren't.

[Clatter]

Heh!
Funny when a set of pushrods you already have comes in to save the day, eh?
I’ll save any of them for just this reason.

And remember…
A bit too short is OK vs. too long with pushrods.
More thrust loading on the guide at full lift vs. on the seat, right?

Just ceremoniously cut my first set of Mantons on my “new” lathe.
Had to put a little countersink in to make starting them easy.
Just because…

Just pushrods make it worth the effort.
You’ll love it when your ‘turn’ comes.
Pa-dum *tish*

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Bus Motor Build

I have excellent news for the world...
There is no such thing as patina.
It does not exist!

[Murt]

Hi Gentlemen.
Haven't been posting as much lately, what with Christmas etc but that's not to say I haven't been busy
Hi @BFB
I don't know exactly what happened to the chap's engine. I actually got a call today to see if they could drop it off with me on the 7th Jan, to 'have a look' at it
I had spoke to the guy, and all he's interested in is having a fast motor in his Bug, as his mate has a new engine in his Oval, and now has bragging rights !!!
He's determined to keep the Supercharger, because it looks cool, and doesn't want to put any more $$$$ into it Oh well, I don't feel comfortable with this so I have politely declined.

Not sure he is up to speed with the old adage Fast/Cheap/Reliable

Hi @Clatter
Loving the Pushrods, looking forward to doing a set for the 1904cc if they need it

Anyway, as I said, been busy with the 1904cc, whilst waiting for the Mo F !! ARP200 bolts
Still loads of work to do on both engines, and today's little journey was gapping the Grant Rings for this engine. I brought the Cylinders home with me today, and I am pretty sure my wife is going to be very pleased whilst I thoroughly wash them in hot soapy water tomorrow in the kitchen

I have a big question for today, and hoping it is a simple reasoned argument for or against
When I gathered all of the parts together for this Bus Engine Build (The 1800cc was my trial engine) I bought a deep sump (1.5qrt) from RossWulf, I'm pretty sure the actual sump itself is EMPI ?? but his sump plate and Viton Seals etc etc. Anyhoo, I'm sitting there contemplating life and the fact that 'Do I really need it' what are your thoughts ???

I'm shooting for a decent CR, I have a tight Deck, I have good heads, It's not going to see much past 4500rpm, It's been well built well, to the best of my abilities
I am running a Scat doghouse 36hp fitted with the Andrig Evolution 2 fan, velocity ring and fixed flaps, all other tinware is original German, and I am full flowed with thermostatic controlled filter head and a 25 row Setrab cooler and Spal Fan.

Damn it I wish those bolts would hurry up and arrive

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1966 VW Beetle ‘Jules’
1967 Kombi Splitscreen ‘Barney’
2018 VW Caddy Maxi R Line
2017 Golf GTD saloon
2008 VW EOS 2.0 TFSi

[Rob Combs]

I’d run that extended sump.

That motor should have the ability to rev pretty quickly, and might move oil out of the sump pretty fast.

[BFB]

ahhh the age old question... to sump or not to sump.
probably matter more if your using a big oil pump and / or going to be doing alot of hard cornering and or off camber driving.

those pushrods though, id be leary of running them with that chamfer, it really thinned the edge of the pushrod where it mates to the cap. thats why the end of the caps are tapered and slightly smaller OD than the tube's ID. I'll bet that edge collapses at least a little
_________________
"how am i supposed to torque the rear wheel nut to 250 ft lbs??? " - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
Most experts aren't.

[Murt]

Well. Finally my bolts are here !!!!
I had ordered the new ones, and ended up getting the wrong ones, so had to send back and get the correct length ones.
I have been stuck at home this week waiting for them, so looking forward to getting back to the workshop tomorrow.
Weather here is freezing, and hopefully as we're down south, we will avoid the snow

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1966 VW Beetle ‘Jules’
1967 Kombi Splitscreen ‘Barney’
2018 VW Caddy Maxi R Line
2017 Golf GTD saloon
2008 VW EOS 2.0 TFSi

[Rob Combs]

[Murt]

Rob
Me too for a while, I guess the post was a bit screwed up over Christmas/New Year.
Back on it today, Bolts all replaced and torqued correctly this time, another mistake I vow not to make again
Crank back in the case, and all good, so on to notching the lifters, a bit more cleaning/checking, and probably ready to glue the case together this weekend with any luck.

I've been following the '$8k engines in the classifieds' thread with interest, and I think you're right, about building to a fixed recipe, because certain jobs, just take hours and hours on a single build. I bet gapping my rings took at least 4 hours, and don't get me started on things like geometry, as there was probably 3 day of my life I won't be getting back to get it close to perfect. The list goes on and on.
Anyway, hopefully back on track now
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1966 VW Beetle ‘Jules’
1967 Kombi Splitscreen ‘Barney’
2018 VW Caddy Maxi R Line
2017 Golf GTD saloon
2008 VW EOS 2.0 TFSi

[Glenn]

[Zed999]

When I rebuilt my first 1600, I'd never looked inside any engine of any make. I knew in outline how it worked, I'd set valve clearances.

There's a lot to it. The more you find out the more you realise how little you know - every answer leads to more questions. My first turned out very nicely, partly from me attending to the things I'd thought of and found out about, but later I realised there was a lot more that I didn't even consider at the time so I got lucky.

The main difference was the miniscule amount of money needed. I made one engine out of two with new bearings and rings and a gasket set. The donor engine was turnkey £50, abandoned I worked out, because "couldn't get it running properly so fitted a diesel engine" was a stuck distributor advance.

I think lot of us got into this hobby because it was pocket money, many of us probably routinely had a shelf full of heads and engines. I remember buying a trunk full of type-4 tinware for £10, 2 whole sets and some extras.

Even 10 years ago I built or rather a mate did, a 2.4L type-4 and starting with a set of bare carbs for about £2,000 to turnkey inc powder coating, donor engine, bearings manifolds, linkage, P&Cs - I had a pile of engine parts to pick through that had amassed without me really noticing. It's all used VW parts apart from the rods and P&C's.

10 years later, when I consider some basic slightly larger valve heads, the cheapest AA, a web cam and lifters and a new set of barrels and rings, it's £3,000+, the post and taxes alone are £1,000. then there will be some machining costs, gasket set, the time. It goes quite well, I'll leave it how it is.

It's not a hobby I'd choose now if I was young.

[Murt]

Made a bit more progress today, and ticked off some more jobs on the list.

Lifters are all grooved and cleaned. Shortened the Case Studs, as the new 8mm CSP ones are just a touch too long, and removed and replaced all the sump studs and fitted pick up extension, ready for the deep sump. Seriously close to putting it together now.
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1966 VW Beetle ‘Jules’
1967 Kombi Splitscreen ‘Barney’
2018 VW Caddy Maxi R Line
2017 Golf GTD saloon
2008 VW EOS 2.0 TFSi

[Murt]

Sorry, hit send too early
I have a question if I may ? When the 1.5qrt sump is finally fitted to the case, and gets it's first lot of break in oil, what is the level you guys use to the dipstick ? I have read that you run at the halfway on the dipstick ? Never had a bolt on sump, so this is new to me

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1966 VW Beetle ‘Jules’
1967 Kombi Splitscreen ‘Barney’
2018 VW Caddy Maxi R Line
2017 Golf GTD saloon
2008 VW EOS 2.0 TFSi

[Rob Combs]

A lot of folks shoot for the bottom scribe on the dipstick. The “low” line.

That’s where I started with mine while I was working out the breather issue I had at first. It seemed to work ok.