| Interested in uprated front brakes? (read below for explanations) |
| Yes, #1 |
|
33% |
[ 3 ] |
| Door #2 |
|
11% |
[ 1 ] |
| Door #3, if it pans out |
|
0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Get back to me when the prices are lower |
|
55% |
[ 5 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 9 |
|
| Author |
Message |
tristessa
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2004
Posts: 3992
Location: Portland, OR
|
 Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:09 pm Post subject: Front brake upgrades. Any interest? |
 |
|
Hey all, please don't kill me for market research but I'm trying to gauge interest before I take this any farther along. I'm only going to run this for a few days, I promise.
I've been R&D-ing the possibility of uprating the front brakes on the disc brake models off-and-on for several months. I started just to see if it could reasonably be done .. this is the sort of thing I do for fun, believe it or not.  I put constraints on myself to keep it challenging, the main ones being that it fit stock wheels (14", 5x112 lug pattern), that it be bolt-on and reversable (no permanent modifications), and to not be such a large increase in braking power that it completely upsets the front/rear balance.
I've come up with two concrete options and a third one possible if additional research on it pans out -- #3 didn't occur to me until a couple days ago, because I was so intent on #1 and #2.  I've done the math on pricing and included it here for comparison and reference. If there's interest, I can start producing #1 and #2 within a month or two on a pre-order basis. I realize the prices are on the higher side, but I'm stuck with buying components retail like everyone else.
- Vented rotor with 4-piston calipers. 10% more piston area than OE calipers with correspondingly larger brake pads. The metal line at the caliper needs to be re-bent, dust shield *may* need clearancing (mine don't). This would include new rotors, new pads, rebuilt calipers, new (longer) wheel studs, spacers to maintain factory wheel offset, and instructions. Cost will be right around $465 + shipping.
- Solid stock rotor with 4-piston calipers. '73-'79 only (sorry!) The calipers have the same specs as above, but it's pretty much bolt-on-and-go. Keep your existing rotors, or replace them with new from one of the fine vendors out there. New pads, rebuilt calipers, instructions (as much as they're needed). Cost will be around $310 + shipping.
- (possible) Vented rotor with stock-type calipers. Uses the same pads as stock and keep the stock front/rear brake balance, but with vented rotors for heat dissipation. This would include new rotors, new pads, calipers (to be determined), new wheel studs, spacers for wheel offset and instructions. Preliminary pricing puts this at $420 + shipping, which almost begs the question of "why" with the price and features of #1.
Yes, the brakes from the factory are quite good. I know that and admit it. But driving conditions aren't what they used to be; many new cars have better braking systems, and plenty of the people driving them drive erratically, drive agressively, or simply don't pay attention. On top of that, there's a growing market and demand for engines with more power and capable of higher speeds than the Volkswagen engineers may have taken into account, and stopping is just as important as going. A bit of an extra edge over and above what we were "dealt" may help keep some of our precious Bays on the road and out of the wrecking yards. Besides, we can't let the Vanagon folks have all the fun of better brakes, can we? Plus, if there *is* a market for this, it can help feed my VW addiction. Gorak needs a windshield. 
Respectfully submitted for your opinions and input. g'nite everyone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
i_want_a_pre_49_ratbeetle
Samba Member
Joined: June 23, 2004
Posts: 442
Location: Martinsville Virginia
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
gives me visions of too much braking force adding a proportining valve to control front to back bias..
done too many custom brakes on harleys.....
and a few muscle cars growing up.
little things like changing the piston diameter in mastercylinder locking brakes at same pressure as before...
if you can lock your tires up at speed then your brakes are better than your tires....
saw someone advertising posche 944 mastercylinder adapters & other mastercylinder adapters...
if you want to play change mastercylinder bore size to next size smaller & find a source for better pads.. & a rear disc brake conversion.... then you better have sticky good quality tires or you wil hear tires squeling everytime you get on brakes hard....
this should be more than adequate unless your really making some serious horsepower & speed.....
just my 2 cents worth
Randy |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amskeptic
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8568
Location: All Across The Country
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Late bay factory brakes are world-class performers, designed to haul down the GVWR from the vehicle's top speed. With the proportioning valve engineered in to this specific application, there is no real improvement that you can hope to achieve. Braking safety begins and ends with the driver and the tire contact patches.
Check your specifications against the factory specifications
60-0 123 feet 1973
60-0 167 feet 1979
70-0 191 feet 1986
All reports (Road&Track,Car&Driver, PV4) gave the brakes an "excellent" rating with superior control.
Colin
_________________
www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tristessa
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2004
Posts: 3992
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
True, and those are all good points. Originally, my main focus was vented rotors for the cooling issues. I got sidetracked when I found the 4-pot caliper, made a few wrong turns, learned a lot. It was hard to contain my own curiousity and excitement enough to stay focused. Several possibilities were discarded while still "on paper" because they wouldn't fit under stock wheels, would change the lug pattern, had clearance issues, would *massively* alter the brake balance, or would entail too much work to adapt. Eventually, I realized there might be a market for what I'd been working on (I'm kinda slow about that sort of thing sometimes), so I decided to distill it down to a few combinations and present those to a knowledgeable group of Bus enthusiasts to get input and opinions. Kinda like what we're doing right here.
I don't have test facilities for braking distance vs. factory. I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Big Boys selling brake kits (CSP, airkewled, CB, etc) don't have those testing facilities either, yet there are many front brake upgrades, rear disc conversions, etc. out there. I also noticed the distances listed don't cover '80-'85 Vanagon. Essentially the same brake as a Bay, but quite a few Vanagon owners within that range of years convert to the later US-spec setup or the factory South African design, sometimes even with rear discs. Go figure.
Enough about that. I've got other things I've been working on as well, but nothing as complex or radical as this. Surely there can't be too much objection to intermittant wipers, can there? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amskeptic
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8568
Location: All Across The Country
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| tristessa wrote: |
I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Big Boys selling brake kits (CSP, airkewled, CB, etc) don't have those testing facilities either, yet there are many front brake upgrades, rear disc conversions, etc. out there.
|
Honestly, some of these kits look to be just for show. Don't forget to get your Ferrari red caliper paint.
Colin
_________________
www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
iggi
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005
Posts: 348
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Usually I'm pretty keen on brake upgrades. But none of the VW's or the Volvo's I've owned needed upgrading.. now, the american cars on the other hand.. 
_________________
'79 Westy - project pumpkin
2.0 Litre FI
Standard
Held together by love, hard work and a little help from my friends. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Zeen
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2004
Posts: 1308
Location: The Sunny Part of Michigan
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 9:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| tristessa wrote: |
I don't have test facilities for braking distance vs. factory. |
Well then.....
| tristessa wrote: |
Surely there can't be too much objection to intermittant wipers, can there? |
Go for it.
_________________
The consequences of your decisions should not be confused with fate. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jered
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2006
Posts: 436
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
your missing an option in the poll...
I'm happy with my stock brakes... I can lock all 4 wheels up with a HARD SOLID slam on the brake pedal....
Why would I need more stopping power then that? To lock em up easier?
I'm Very happy with my westy's brakes... and plan to keep them stock...
The only good thing I can think to do, is a rear disc conversion to eliminate having to adjust the rear brakes... but that's just for lazyness sake...
_________________
No VW right now....  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tristessa
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2004
Posts: 3992
Location: Portland, OR
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 78westy not westy78 wrote: |
| tristessa wrote: |
I don't have test facilities for braking distance vs. factory. |
Well then..... |
I'll betcha that you don't have a braking scratch pad for testing stopping distance in your backyard either. Seriously though, the potential kits haven't been road tested yet. I've got measurements, calculations and reference material, I've test-fit the components, I know it *can* be done. It's been an educational experience coming up with this, gave me plenty of excuses to tinker in the garage or go to the junkyard to see what's available. But it's only been a hobby up to this point, and I'd be throwing money away to road test three different braking configurations if there's little-to-no need or interest from the potential market.
Interest and need, or the lack thereof, is what I'm trying to determine with this thread and poll. If the interest is there, I can take this to the next level. If it's not there, no big deal. I still learned a lot and had an enjoyable time doing it.
| jered wrote: |
your missing an option in the poll...
...
I'm Very happy with my westy's brakes... and plan to keep them stock... |
I *put* another option in the poll, but there was a glitch in the Matrix and it didn't show up. Option 5 would have read "If it's good enough for the elves of Wolfsburg, it's good enough for me". Vanagon rears bolt-on and are self-adjusting. For the most part, I'm happy with my Westy's brakes as well, though I have experienced fade coming down the mountain a time or two .. which got me thinking about vented brakes, and led me "here" in a manner of speaking.
| 78westy not westy78 wrote: |
| tristessa wrote: |
| Surely there can't be too much objection to intermittant wipers, can there? |
Go for it. |
I've had them in my '75 for more than a year, but I never bothered doing anything more until about it until recently .. and I forgot exactly what I did in the intervening months (should've written it down), so I had to start over. Since it's based on how I did things, it's only for the '75-79 steering column, though. I just don't know enough about the earlier years... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steponmebbbboom
Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2004
Posts: 6390
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I think packaging some vented rotors with some Performance Friction semi-metallic pads as well as some pairs of used vanagon rear brake assemblies from the boneyard might fetch a nice little margin. Just market them with the disclaimer that the Performance Friction pads will wear down your rotors faster.
I think going beyond that will go beyond the market. these are not rally vehicles, as you said controlling fade while driving through the catskills is the most marketable angle for a brake upgrade. I would focus on that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
i_want_a_pre_49_ratbeetle
Samba Member
Joined: June 23, 2004
Posts: 442
Location: Martinsville Virginia
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
hmm testing stopping distances maybe you could find a decelerometer?
i have 1 but havent looked for it in years it is required in Virginia for every inspection station to have one, but i worked for other people & never needed it myself
as far as vented rotors.. as long as you are know what your doing??? make sure rotors are not below the min standard thickness of standard rotors we dont want our calipers traveling out any farther then max recomended for safety issues & if you use alternative calipers make sure of this as well.
& 1 other possibility but would require a major overhaul of brake system... rebuild mastercylinder, wheel cylinders, & totally bleed & flush all old brake fluid as it isnt compatible with type 5 brake fluid which has a higher boiling point & more fade resistant... but you dont find silicone fluid at every store in town.. motorcycle shops yes... but car places not many as regular fluid..
also if your thinking of any stainless steel rotors... which would cost an arm & leg.. they have a higher coieficient of friction & will require more pedal pressure for same stopping power of a standard iron rotor but would last better with performance pads...
Randy |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amskeptic
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2002
Posts: 8568
Location: All Across The Country
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My original rotors on the bus clocked 419,000 miles. They got hot enough to glow cherry the day I threw a hissy fit because they were squeaking (squeaking? damn it let's bed them in GOOD).
My BMW's vented rotors have never exceeded 30,000 miles without getting all warped and stupid. The stability of the bus rotors is a dream.
Colin
_________________
www.itinerant-air-cooled.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steponmebbbboom
Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2004
Posts: 6390
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| i_want_a_pre_49_ratbeetle wrote: |
& 1 other possibility but would require a major overhaul of brake system... rebuild mastercylinder, wheel cylinders, & totally bleed & flush all old brake fluid as it isnt compatible with type 5 brake fluid which has a higher boiling point & more fade resistant... but you dont find silicone fluid at every store in town.. motorcycle shops yes... but car places not many as regular fluid.. |
sorry Randy, silicone dot 5 brake fluid does not absorb water and is dangerous in an automotive brake system, because it allows water to pool in the low points and cause corrosion from the inside out, as well as boil over and cause steam pockets which will cause brake fade. Also, it is much more difficult to get a firm pedal with it, because its consistency is such that it traps air in tiny bubbles that are very slow to rise to the surface and pop. That's why the silicone fluid container warns you not to drop it, shake it, etc. Good practice is to pour the fluid against the sloping sidewall of a funnel rather than directly into the master cylinder---this gives the bubbles a good shot at popping.
now having said that, you do have other choices. DOT 3, DOT 4 and DOT 5.1 are all glycol-based. the higher the number, the higher the boiling point of the fluid and you still retain the hydrophilic properties of the glycol base. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
flabay
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2004
Posts: 638
Location: Clearwater,FL
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
How about a new poll- "what brake fluid do you run?"
I run Valvoline Synthetic DOT4 after a complete brake system overhaul, for about a year now. I likey so far. Still looks nice and clean and at the same level in the master. I did about 4000 miles in a year last year so I don't know? I do know I have plenty of braking power and a nice pedal with a stock rebuilt system. More than enough. ALL HAIL THE GREAT LATE BAY BUS BRAKES!!! 
_________________
<<<R.I.P. 74' Euro Weekender
New Old Bus:
78' Champagne Edition Passenger AKA "The Turd"
Still can't figure out how to install this Charcoal Can right with my 40mm dual solex carbs. PM me please.
Click to view image |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steponmebbbboom
Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2004
Posts: 6390
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I also use DOT 4, the nice thing about it is it is compatible with DOT 3, you do not have to flush beforehand. I do not feel that the cost of 5.1 is justified for our application, on a racecar it would be. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
i_want_a_pre_49_ratbeetle
Samba Member
Joined: June 23, 2004
Posts: 442
Location: Martinsville Virginia
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
sorry for any misinformation..
i have plenty of experience with it but it mostly was on harleys with stainless steel lines & braided lines no standard metal lines..
1 of reasons i quit bike shop after 13 years was the owner was always removing my rear brake caliper to let people try it to see how good it worked on their bike as well as my mastercylinder
just about everytime i left bike at shop i could almost count on haveing to reinstall my mastercylinder & rear caliper...
i had top quality brakes & top quality racing mastercylinder & caliper
owner was too cheap to keep 1 in stock so he was always borrowing mine off my bike to show it to customers... well i never had to buy fluid.. it was like 8.95 a pint... yikes...
he also would let customers try my smaller sprockets on rear wheel & always taking my carb off as well...
job paid very well as well as i got all kinds of free take off parts..
but i got tired of my bike being the ginnie pig so i walked out 3 years ago.
anyway i have plenty experience with this on harleys & can tell you it is a harder pedal with no other changes.. as far as water build up in low points i will agree with steponmebbbboom
we are afterall not driving race bred busses are we? just looking to tweak performance & brakes & keep relaibility
Randy |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
