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Rick
Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2003
Posts: 1539
Location: Soquel, California
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 Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:14 am Post subject: after RGB rebuild I wake up to...LEAKS! what went wrong? |
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 I'm frusterated. After spending a lot of time this weekend on my bus it leaks! I replaced a bent stub axle on one side and just cleaned up the other rgb. I replaced all gaskets, all seals, a couple bearings on one side and refilled both RGBs to the top with oil. After all the time put in I go down this morning and both sides have a leak. It appears that both RGB and axle seal gaskets are good, no leaks. It looks like it might be coming from the weep hole on the backing plate and/or the wheel cylinder, but very very slowly. I'm thinging a table spoon of oil leaked out. To me this means I may have put together the o-rings, spacers, washers, etc on the wrong way when putting the axle seal kit back on. I had no manual or diagram save for a big nut diagram, and mine is a small nut tranny. Anyone know what I may have done wrong before I tear the thing apart AGAIN? Does every part in the axle seal rebuild kit get used on a small nut tranny? I was duplicating what was already there when I took them apart so I suppose it's possible that a PO put it together wrong too. This sucks. I thought I was going to be back on the road after this weekend. Not to mention that my wife is now giving me "that look" and refers to the bus as "the time sucker" now. |
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splitpile
Samba's Worst Speller
Joined: May 03, 2000
Posts: 5927
Location: back to living where hell meets the suface
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: Re: after RGB rebuild I wake up to...LEAKS! what went wrong |
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| Rick wrote: |
| I'm frusterated. After spending a lot of time this weekend on my bus it leaks! I replaced a bent stub axle on one side and just cleaned up the other rgb. I replaced all gaskets, all seals, a couple bearings on one side and refilled both RGBs to the top with oil. After all the time put in I go down this morning and both sides have a leak. It appears that both RGB and axle seal gaskets are good, no leaks. It looks like it might be coming from the weep hole on the backing plate and/or the wheel cylinder, but very very slowly. I'm thinging a table spoon of oil leaked out. To me this means I may have put together the o-rings, spacers, washers, etc on the wrong way when putting the axle seal kit back on. I had no manual or diagram save for a big nut diagram, and mine is a small nut tranny. Anyone know what I may have done wrong before I tear the thing apart AGAIN? Does every part in the axle seal rebuild kit get used on a small nut tranny? I was duplicating what was already there when I took them apart so I suppose it's possible that a PO put it together wrong too. This sucks. I thought I was going to be back on the road after this weekend. Not to mention that my wife is now giving me "that look" and refers to the bus as "the time sucker" now. |
Are your drums on and tight?
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Rick
Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2003
Posts: 1539
Location: Soquel, California
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:13 am Post subject: Re: after RGB rebuild I wake up to...LEAKS! what went wrong |
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| splitpile wrote: |
Are your drums on and tight? |
well that brings up another question. But the answer is that one drum is off and the other is on. How tight should I make the drum? Should I keep cranking the nut until it bottoms the bearings then back it off a litttle or what? I think my one drum is on tight, but that one doesn't leak as much as the other. also, I found this picture which shows all the parts going on the axle. I did everything as per this picture, but I noticed that the rebuild kit came with a large o-ring that fit nicely into the bearing cover. I had one of these in there when I took it apart but the picture below doesn't show it. Should I have not used it or is the picture wrong?
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Lind
Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2000
Posts: 9915
Location: idaho
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:23 am Post subject: Re: after RGB rebuild I wake up to...LEAKS! what went wrong |
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| Rick wrote: |
| splitpile wrote: |
Are your drums on and tight? |
well that brings up another question. But the answer is that one drum is off and the other is on. How tight should I make the drum? Should I keep cranking the nut until it bottoms the bearings then back it off a litttle or what? I think my one drum is on tight, but that one doesn't leak as much as the other. also, I found this picture which shows all the parts going on the axle. I did everything as per this picture, but I noticed that the rebuild kit came with a large o-ring that fit nicely into the bearing cover. I had one of these in there when I took it apart but the picture below doesn't show it. Should I have not used it or is the picture wrong?
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that large O-ring belongs in the trash, not on your bus. the axle kit is a one size fits all, so the kit works for various models that take various parts. not all models use all the parts.
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Rick
Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2003
Posts: 1539
Location: Soquel, California
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:47 am Post subject: Re: after RGB rebuild I wake up to...LEAKS! what went wrong |
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| Lind wrote: |
| that large O-ring belongs in the trash, not on your bus. the axle kit is a one size fits all, so the kit works for various models that take various parts. not all models use all the parts. |
So would that large o-ring be enough to cause the leak? It makes sense, because that o-ring was in there before and they leaked. So the bottom line: the picture above is exactly correct for my 63 small nut tranny, right? If so I'll put it together like that, no more, no less. |
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camperfan
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:16 am Post subject: |
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OOOPS! Why do Americans see a fill hole on WHATEVER and feel that they need to fill it up and then some???? Just wondering!!! The reduction boxes ONLY REQUIRE 0.25 litre or 0.5 US pint which equates to 8 ounces (1 cup) per RGB NOT 1 quart, Not half gallon, NOT FULL TO THE TOP^ 
Yes your drums have to be tight to keep the gear oil from leaking out. Make sure that you install the small oring around the stub axle without cutting, nicking, twisting it into a hair tie and place the bevelled part of PART #8 inwards toward the oring you just installed PROPERLY then torque the drum asap to 217 ft/lb. Under no circumstances should the axle nut be tightened more than 217. If the cotter pin hole does not align when properly torqued, get another nut!!
Take all of this info with a grain of salt as I may not know my ass from a hole in the ground.  |
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Campy
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2005
Posts: 4933
Location: Chico, CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Camperfan is right; all I can add is to make sure that the axle tubes are slanting downward from the center section before you put oil in the RGBs.
You probably don't have a large torque wrench but you can try what I always did: I put a block behind or in front of the tire, depending on which side you are doing, look to see where the holes in the stub axle are located (for convenience, there are two sets of holes), screw on the nut, put my three-quarter inch drive socket and breaker bar over it, tighten it by hand, then put a steel vacuum cleaner pipe on the breaker bar for leverage and stand on it. If the holes didn't line up with the slots in the castle nut, then the nut would have to be turned a little more until the holes are centered. |
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FlyA181
Samba Member
Joined: August 14, 2006
Posts: 13
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:15 am Post subject: Bus taking a leak |
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| Let me know if you need someone standing around and watching while you try to re-use that gasket one more time! My experience had led me to believe the third try is usually the charm. |
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Rick
Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2003
Posts: 1539
Location: Soquel, California
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| camperfan wrote: |
OOOPS! Why do Americans see a fill hole on WHATEVER and feel that they need to fill it up and then some???? Just wondering!!! The reduction boxes ONLY REQUIRE 0.25 litre or 0.5 US pint which equates to 8 ounces (1 cup) per RGB NOT 1 quart, Not half gallon, NOT FULL TO THE TOP^
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wait, am I wrong in thinking there is some debate on how one should fill their RGBs and tranny? I've read many times on the samba that you fill the RGBs to the top so that you don't have to wait for the oil to go from the tranny through the axle tubes and into the RGB. Doesn't really matter since I'll be draining the RGBs again to fix the problem, but I would like some clarity on how to fill everything up |
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Rick
Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2003
Posts: 1539
Location: Soquel, California
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Bus taking a leak |
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| FlyA181 wrote: |
| Let me know if you need someone standing around and watching while you try to re-use that gasket one more time! My experience had led me to believe the third try is usually the charm. |
Welcome flya181, and thanks again for the help yesterday. yes I think some new gaskets are in order. and new cotter pins which have not been re-used and beat on countless times. we really could have used that diagram yesterday |
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camperfan
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Rick wrote: |
| camperfan wrote: |
OOOPS! Why do Americans see a fill hole on WHATEVER and feel that they need to fill it up and then some???? Just wondering!!! The reduction boxes ONLY REQUIRE 0.25 litre or 0.5 US pint which equates to 8 ounces (1 cup) per RGB NOT 1 quart, Not half gallon, NOT FULL TO THE TOP^
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wait, am I wrong in thinking there is some debate on how one should fill their RGBs and tranny? I've read many times on the samba that you fill the RGBs to the top so that you don't have to wait for the oil to go from the tranny through the axle tubes and into the RGB. Doesn't really matter since I'll be draining the RGBs again to fix the problem, but I would like some clarity on how to fill everything up |
I do not know how to be any more clear than my previous post but here goes. Drain the oil from your RGB until it quits flowing oil in a large stream. Put the drain plug back in and tighten just enough so that it will not fall out in the future. Measure 8 ounces (1 CUP) of gear oil (I will only use Sta-lube) and put all of it into the RGB through the fill hole located in the top of the RGB then put the plug in and tighten it so that it will not come out while travelling. Repeat this procedure for the opposite side of your bus. PRESTO!!! call it done!!! and basically to the factory spec no less.....
You see, Americans like to think of VWs as something that is so simple to work on that they do not need no stinking manual.. You just take it apart (whatever part/task may be at hand) and do whatever work you can do to put the new parts in and assemble/tighten/fill and your done. Presto, just like the factory did it only better...WRONG!!!!
There is a reason you dont fill the RGBs till they overflow then hurry and put the plug in and it is called hydraulics. If you have the proper amount (0.25 liters) of oil in the RGB then when the bus is in motion it will cling to the gears and climb up the gears and lubricate every part in the box properly, believe it or not. If you choose the wrong approach and say to yourself, "Self, if a little bit is good then alot is better" then you will have a problem when the gears start turning as there is no room for air to circulate in the box and you will more than likely have oil being forced out of the axle seal which in turn should show up on the backside of the brake backing plate at the weep hole.
Yes, there is some debate on how one should fill their RGBs and tranny. Trust me when I say that all Sambanistas who fill there RGB's till they are full are doing it wrong and really should not be working on thier own vehicle. But it is thiers so they can do as they damn well please. |
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Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Camperfan is right, and wrong.
I quote from the factory manual
Reduction gears capacity = 0.5 US pints. (0.4 Imp. pints)
You said .25 Imp. Pints.
(Just giving you a bad time.)
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camperfan
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
Camperfan is right, and wrong.
I quote from the factory manual
Reduction gears capacity = 0.5 US pints. (0.4 Imp. pints)
You said .25 Imp. Pints.
(Just giving you a bad time.) |
Hey thanks for telling me I am wrong. Please notice that at no time did I edit my previous posts AND at no time did I mention anything about capacities in imperial pints.
May I ask if you wear glasses? If so you might think about a new prescription. I hate to sound so rude but also do not like being told I am wrong about a statement I did not make. |
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Yellowbeard
Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2006
Posts: 2288
Location: At large again...
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| camperfan wrote: |
| OOOPS! Why do Americans see a fill hole on WHATEVER and feel that they need to fill it up and then some???? Just wondering!!! |
Because every American vehicle ever built placed the fill hole at the proper level for the required oil level. Fill it till it's full, put the plug back in, and PRESTO! No measuring, no conversions, no drama. Simple enough.
Now you can quit wondering. 
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| Lohe wrote: |
Thanks. Thread went from me not being able to understand what Ipis was saying because English is obviously not his first language to me not being able to understand it because English is my first language  |
Fuel pumps galore:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=845378 |
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camperfan
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| don3751 wrote: |
| camperfan wrote: |
| OOOPS! Why do Americans see a fill hole on WHATEVER and feel that they need to fill it up and then some???? Just wondering!!! |
Because every American vehicle ever built placed the fill hole at the proper level for the required oil level. Fill it till it's full, put the plug back in, and PRESTO! No measuring, no conversions, no drama. Simple enough.
Now you can quit wondering. |
No my day is completed. I learned something new  |
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Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24736
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Rick wrote: |
wait, am I wrong in thinking there is some debate on how one should fill their RGBs and tranny? I've read many times on the samba that you fill the RGBs to the top so that you don't have to wait for the oil to go from the tranny through the axle tubes and into the RGB. Doesn't really matter since I'll be draining the RGBs again to fix the problem, but I would like some clarity on how to fill everything up |
Hi Rick,
Just fill the RGBs and then the center section.
If one does not believe this works then try this experiement. Do not fill the RGBs. Seal them up, including tightening the axle nuts.
Then fill only the center section. This will take quite a few times (depending on outside temp, oil weight, gear oil temp, etc..) waiting about 10 minutes between each fillup. When you can not get anymore gear oil in the center section after waiting the 10 minutes, remove the RGB filler plugs. Enjoy the gear oil that wells up and out of the RGBs because the gear oil in the tranny is flowing down the axle tubes and up through the fill hole.
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EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69813
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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So does that mean if you ever "top off" your center section by filling it to the bottom of the fill hole, you will "overfill" the RGBs?
Since they are connected, why wouldn't the fluid run from the center to the RGBs and "overfill" them all the time?
Or are you also measuring out how much to put in the center section?
I guess what I am asking is are you filling the RGBs first to save time or not to overfill them because it seems like the center section fluid would run down to them anyway.
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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13271
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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What's with the bad mouthing of americans? You are correct on your info, but I'm an American, and I knew that. Also, I don't like to fill up evey hole I see. I don't like fat chick holes thank you.
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camperfan
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 201
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Erik G wrote: |
| What's with the bad mouthing of americans? You are correct on your info, but I'm an American, and I knew that. Also, I don't like to fill up evey hole I see. I don't like fat chick holes thank you. |
I didn't mean to sound like I was 'bad mouthing Americans' as I am an American. I should have said 'American mentality' instead...  |
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Rick
Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2003
Posts: 1539
Location: Soquel, California
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
Hi Rick,
Just fill the RGBs and then the center section.
If one does not believe this works then try this experiement. Do not fill the RGBs. Seal them up, including tightening the axle nuts.
Then fill only the center section. This will take quite a few times (depending on outside temp, oil weight, gear oil temp, etc..) waiting about 10 minutes between each fillup. When you can not get anymore gear oil in the center section after waiting the 10 minutes, remove the RGB filler plugs. Enjoy the gear oil that wells up and out of the RGBs because the gear oil in the tranny is flowing down the axle tubes and up through the fill hole. |
Thanks for that. It's what I've read here several times and makes logical sense. It's a little something us americans like to call gravity. But even if the official manual says to do it another way we should all arrive at the same end result: a lubricated transaxle. Thanks everyone for the help. I have great confidence that it will all work out this time. (wait, that's what I said when I started this whole process ) |
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