Author |
Message |
prom8n Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2005 Posts: 60 Location: Pinckney, Michigan
|
Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:45 am Post subject: Finally taking the engine re-build plunge; got Q's |
|
|
Tinkered with VW's for years, but I'm finally doing an engine rebuild. Have two old 1500SP's that have been sitting around for years, one sat out in the weather and was siezed up good. I'm having an interesting time pulling that one apart.
Q: 83mm original bore, but all the replacements I see are labled 85.5mm, or "for 1500/1600 engines", etc. Can you install new 85.5mm cylinders & pistons on a 1500 crankcase and head? Machining required? Are 83mm units NLA? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31272 Location: Hot Arizona
|
Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, the 85.5 mm cylinders will fit right in, in place of the stock 83 mm cylinders/pistons. You'll find 85.5 considerably less expensive to buy, and much more plentiful (assuming 83 mm are still available). No machining required. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
RJBeetle66 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2004 Posts: 120 Location: Rhode Island
|
Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
while you're at it, I would advise going with DP heads. From what I heard, DPs are more reliable and obviously give you a bit more bang...plus parts are easier to come by. I've only run DP so I cant speak from experience. Just my $0.02 _________________ 66 Bug (still no name as of yet)
94 Geo Metro "Molly"
possibly a 65 Chrysler Newport (will have to see about that one)
Volksrods.com alias... BrokenBeetle66 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13386 Location: Arizona
|
Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
RJBeetle66 wrote: |
while you're at it, I would advise going with DP heads. From what I heard, DPs are more reliable and obviously give you a bit more bang...plus parts are easier to come by. I've only run DP so I cant speak from experience. Just my $0.02 |
But you will need cylinder tins, manifold, possibly a carb, etc.
Dual port heads crack more between the exhaust/intake valves. I have run both 1600 single port and 1600 dual port engines and don't feel the gains of switching over to dual port will be that much more pronounced in stock configuration. If you are going to go dual carbs, header exhaust, then you should go dual port. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
|
Back to top |
|
|
wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13386 Location: Arizona
|
Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
RJBeetle66 wrote: |
while you're at it, I would advise going with DP heads. From what I heard, DPs are more reliable and obviously give you a bit more bang...plus parts are easier to come by. I've only run DP so I cant speak from experience. Just my $0.02 |
But you will need cylinder tins, manifold, possibly a carb, etc.
Dual port heads crack more between the exhaust/intake valves. I have run both 1600 single port and 1600 dual port engines and don't feel the gains of switching over to dual port will be that much more pronounced in stock configuration. If you are going to go dual carbs, header exhaust, then you should go dual port. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
|
Back to top |
|
|
RIS Samba Member
Joined: December 18, 2003 Posts: 3043 Location: Youngstown, Ohio
|
Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
Go 85.5, but keep it single port. If you go dual port it would be highly recommended to switch to the dog house oil cooler, which would require the proper fan shroud and associated engine tin. _________________ Richard Sedoris - VW Performance & Machine - Youngstown, OH
http://rismachine.tumblr.com/
YouTube: https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCfTBCG4I61iVm_ROc8OAuOQ
Instagram: @rismachine |
|
Back to top |
|
|
prom8n Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2005 Posts: 60 Location: Pinckney, Michigan
|
Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:21 am Post subject: 1500 to 1600 |
|
|
Thanks for the info. Id like to stay with the stock 1500-sp layout, better milage and torque. But if I install 85.5mm pistons with the stock 69mm crank, then I've gone up to 1600cc, right? Looks like there's no way around that. Does anyone still supply affordable 83mm pistons/cylinders?
If I increase to 1600, will the stock 1500 cooling system still do the job? I figure VW went to the doghouse design for a good reason. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31272 Location: Hot Arizona
|
Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
1600 single port is fine with stock "early" non-doghouse cooling systems, if all the engine "tin", timing, etc. is fine. The 1970 models (like mine) had this all: single port 1600, early oil cooler style. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
egspot Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2005 Posts: 52 Location: British Columbia
|
Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:30 pm Post subject: rebilt? |
|
|
I would do 1600 sp.
I think:
If your sp were ported and polished with a single centered carb, they will would be as good or better than a 1600 dp with with a single centered carb. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Calisupastarz Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2005 Posts: 610 Location: Sylmar, California
|
Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: 1500 to 1600 |
|
|
prom8n wrote: |
Thanks for the info. Id like to stay with the stock 1500-sp layout, better milage and torque. But if I install 85.5mm pistons with the stock 69mm crank, then I've gone up to 1600cc, right? Looks like there's no way around that. Does anyone still supply affordable 83mm pistons/cylinders? |
I am in the process of rebuilding my 1500 SP motor (new heads, pistons, bearings, etc.), so I know what you are going through. You can still find the 83 mm P & Cs, but they are difficult to find in the "major" VW aftermarket suppliers. You don't want the "Big Bore" 83 mm P & Cs, those are for increasing 1200 and 1300 motors to 1500 (I believe, someone correct me if I'm wrong.) Here are some 1500 Pistons that I found here on TheSamba.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=162898
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=153740
I contacted the second guy, he's got the best price and only was charging $10 to ship them to California. But after some consternation, I decided that I wanted to get a little more power out of the motor, so that meant getting an 85.5 mm P & C kit. After careful contemplation I chose these.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C24%2D311%2D198%2D069%2DF
Incidentally, I also chose to leave the motor as a singleport, so as not to change the tins, oil cooling system, etc. Because I needed new (or rebuilt) heads, and I'm not too keen on rebuilt heads, I also chose these from CIP1. com, only place I could find new singleport heads for this price.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D311%2D101%2D353%2DAKIT
2 new heads + 1 new P & C kit ~ $500. _________________ 69 Beetle Autostick DD
"At first glance, you will notice the lack of a clutch pedal. Driving with the Automatic StickShift is simpler and shifting is easier." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Calisupastarz Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2005 Posts: 610 Location: Sylmar, California
|
Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:50 pm Post subject: Re: rebilt? |
|
|
egspot wrote: |
IIf your sp were ported and polished with a single centered carb, they will would be as good or better than a 1600 dp with with a single centered carb. |
That's what I'm planning on doing with my rebuild. So I'm going from:
Original (very tired) 1500 singleport, never been rebuilt. Stock 30 Pict-2 carb, stock oil cooler, stock air cleaner, etc.
To:
85.5 pistons & cylinders, ported and polished new singleport heads, new rod, main, & cam bearings, alignment-bored case and decked cylinder spigot surfaces.
Hopefully, when I'm done, I'll have something similar in power to a 1600 DP motor. _________________ 69 Beetle Autostick DD
"At first glance, you will notice the lack of a clutch pedal. Driving with the Automatic StickShift is simpler and shifting is easier." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bill may Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2003 Posts: 14160 Location: san diego,ca
|
Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
RJBeetle66 wrote: |
while you're at it, I would advise going with DP heads. From what I heard, DPs are more reliable and obviously give you a bit more bang...plus parts are easier to come by. I've only run DP so I cant speak from experience. Just my $0.02 |
how come there is not a huge smiley when dual port lovers post this??? _________________ Admin note: Bill Passed away - July, 2017
1965 panel bus-Kermit
"Camping is cheaper than therapy"
www.sv2s.com
www.steeringboxscrapers.net
SBS #100
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=453617 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 4394 Location: Brew City
|
Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: 1500 to 1600 |
|
|
Calisupastarz wrote: |
prom8n wrote: |
Thanks for the info. Id like to stay with the stock 1500-sp layout, better milage and torque. But if I install 85.5mm pistons with the stock 69mm crank, then I've gone up to 1600cc, right? Looks like there's no way around that. Does anyone still supply affordable 83mm pistons/cylinders? |
I am in the process of rebuilding my 1500 SP motor (new heads, pistons, bearings, etc.), so I know what you are going through. You can still find the 83 mm P & Cs, but they are difficult to find in the "major" VW aftermarket suppliers. You don't want the "Big Bore" 83 mm P & Cs, those are for increasing 1200 and 1300 motors to 1500 (I believe, someone correct me if I'm wrong.) Here are some 1500 Pistons that I found here on TheSamba.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=162898
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=153740
I contacted the second guy, he's got the best price and only was charging $10 to ship them to California. But after some consternation, I decided that I wanted to get a little more power out of the motor, so that meant getting an 85.5 mm P & C kit. After careful contemplation I chose these.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C24%2D311%2D198%2D069%2DF
Incidentally, I also chose to leave the motor as a singleport, so as not to change the tins, oil cooling system, etc. Because I needed new (or rebuilt) heads, and I'm not too keen on rebuilt heads, I also chose these from CIP1. com, only place I could find new singleport heads for this price.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D311%2D101%2D353%2DAKIT
2 new heads + 1 new P & C kit ~ $500. |
I would be very suspicious of those single port heads. I just read their ad it it is a lie. Brand new single port heads have been available during the past two years. I bought three sets about a year and a half ago, built three engines and got all three engines back. On two sets, the valve guides were such poor quality that they disintegrated after about 200 miles. On the third set, the casting was so poor, it developed an exhaust leak through the port, through the cooling fins. Now I only use and sell rebuilt German heads and I haven't had any problems since. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bill may Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2003 Posts: 14160 Location: san diego,ca
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13386 Location: Arizona
|
Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: 1500 to 1600 |
|
|
[email protected] wrote: |
Calisupastarz wrote: |
prom8n wrote: |
Thanks for the info. Id like to stay with the stock 1500-sp layout, better milage and torque. But if I install 85.5mm pistons with the stock 69mm crank, then I've gone up to 1600cc, right? Looks like there's no way around that. Does anyone still supply affordable 83mm pistons/cylinders? |
I am in the process of rebuilding my 1500 SP motor (new heads, pistons, bearings, etc.), so I know what you are going through. You can still find the 83 mm P & Cs, but they are difficult to find in the "major" VW aftermarket suppliers. You don't want the "Big Bore" 83 mm P & Cs, those are for increasing 1200 and 1300 motors to 1500 (I believe, someone correct me if I'm wrong.) Here are some 1500 Pistons that I found here on TheSamba.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=162898
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=153740
I contacted the second guy, he's got the best price and only was charging $10 to ship them to California. But after some consternation, I decided that I wanted to get a little more power out of the motor, so that meant getting an 85.5 mm P & C kit. After careful contemplation I chose these.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C24%2D311%2D198%2D069%2DF
Incidentally, I also chose to leave the motor as a singleport, so as not to change the tins, oil cooling system, etc. Because I needed new (or rebuilt) heads, and I'm not too keen on rebuilt heads, I also chose these from CIP1. com, only place I could find new singleport heads for this price.
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D311%2D101%2D353%2DAKIT
2 new heads + 1 new P & C kit ~ $500. |
I would be very suspicious of those single port heads. I just read their ad it it is a lie. Brand new single port heads have been available during the past two years. I bought three sets about a year and a half ago, built three engines and got all three engines back. On two sets, the valve guides were such poor quality that they disintegrated after about 200 miles. On the third set, the casting was so poor, it developed an exhaust leak through the port, through the cooling fins. Now I only use and sell rebuilt German heads and I haven't had any problems since. |
I agree with you Roy. I would MUCH prefer rebuilding used German heads then buying new "after market" heads. Have a good machine shop do the rebuild and get a three angle valve job. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Calisupastarz Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2005 Posts: 610 Location: Sylmar, California
|
Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: 1500 to 1600 |
|
|
wcfvw69 wrote: |
I agree with you Roy. I would MUCH prefer rebuilding used German heads then buying new "after market" heads. Have a good machine shop do the rebuild and get a three angle valve job. |
The parts should arrive today, I'll inspect them closely and if they look substandard I'll return them and get rebuilt heads. Thanks for the advice and warning, it is very much appreciated. _________________ 69 Beetle Autostick DD
"At first glance, you will notice the lack of a clutch pedal. Driving with the Automatic StickShift is simpler and shifting is easier." |
|
Back to top |
|
|
stinger381 Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2006 Posts: 241
|
Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well let me ask this question ......My 40 hp 1200cc motor has a bearing knocking in it. I took it out and put in a 1500 (53 hp) motor for a temporary fix. I want to rebuild the 40 hp block and make it bigger, is it worth it ? Can I even make it a 1500 cc or 1600 cc with that og block ? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|