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Finally taking the engine re-build plunge; got Q's
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prom8n
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:45 am    Post subject: Finally taking the engine re-build plunge; got Q's Reply with quote

Tinkered with VW's for years, but I'm finally doing an engine rebuild. Have two old 1500SP's that have been sitting around for years, one sat out in the weather and was siezed up good. I'm having an interesting time pulling that one apart.

Q: 83mm original bore, but all the replacements I see are labled 85.5mm, or "for 1500/1600 engines", etc. Can you install new 85.5mm cylinders & pistons on a 1500 crankcase and head? Machining required? Are 83mm units NLA?
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Cusser
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the 85.5 mm cylinders will fit right in, in place of the stock 83 mm cylinders/pistons. You'll find 85.5 considerably less expensive to buy, and much more plentiful (assuming 83 mm are still available). No machining required.
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RJBeetle66
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

while you're at it, I would advise going with DP heads. From what I heard, DPs are more reliable and obviously give you a bit more bang...plus parts are easier to come by. I've only run DP so I cant speak from experience. Just my $0.02
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RJBeetle66 wrote:
while you're at it, I would advise going with DP heads. From what I heard, DPs are more reliable and obviously give you a bit more bang...plus parts are easier to come by. I've only run DP so I cant speak from experience. Just my $0.02


But you will need cylinder tins, manifold, possibly a carb, etc.
Dual port heads crack more between the exhaust/intake valves. I have run both 1600 single port and 1600 dual port engines and don't feel the gains of switching over to dual port will be that much more pronounced in stock configuration. If you are going to go dual carbs, header exhaust, then you should go dual port.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RJBeetle66 wrote:
while you're at it, I would advise going with DP heads. From what I heard, DPs are more reliable and obviously give you a bit more bang...plus parts are easier to come by. I've only run DP so I cant speak from experience. Just my $0.02


But you will need cylinder tins, manifold, possibly a carb, etc.
Dual port heads crack more between the exhaust/intake valves. I have run both 1600 single port and 1600 dual port engines and don't feel the gains of switching over to dual port will be that much more pronounced in stock configuration. If you are going to go dual carbs, header exhaust, then you should go dual port.
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RIS
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go 85.5, but keep it single port. If you go dual port it would be highly recommended to switch to the dog house oil cooler, which would require the proper fan shroud and associated engine tin.
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prom8n
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:21 am    Post subject: 1500 to 1600 Reply with quote

Thanks for the info. Id like to stay with the stock 1500-sp layout, better milage and torque. But if I install 85.5mm pistons with the stock 69mm crank, then I've gone up to 1600cc, right? Looks like there's no way around that. Does anyone still supply affordable 83mm pistons/cylinders?

If I increase to 1600, will the stock 1500 cooling system still do the job? I figure VW went to the doghouse design for a good reason.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1600 single port is fine with stock "early" non-doghouse cooling systems, if all the engine "tin", timing, etc. is fine. The 1970 models (like mine) had this all: single port 1600, early oil cooler style.
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egspot
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:30 pm    Post subject: rebilt? Reply with quote

I would do 1600 sp.

I think:

If your sp were ported and polished with a single centered carb, they will would be as good or better than a 1600 dp with with a single centered carb.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 1500 to 1600 Reply with quote

prom8n wrote:
Thanks for the info. Id like to stay with the stock 1500-sp layout, better milage and torque. But if I install 85.5mm pistons with the stock 69mm crank, then I've gone up to 1600cc, right? Looks like there's no way around that. Does anyone still supply affordable 83mm pistons/cylinders?


I am in the process of rebuilding my 1500 SP motor (new heads, pistons, bearings, etc.), so I know what you are going through. You can still find the 83 mm P & Cs, but they are difficult to find in the "major" VW aftermarket suppliers. You don't want the "Big Bore" 83 mm P & Cs, those are for increasing 1200 and 1300 motors to 1500 (I believe, someone correct me if I'm wrong.) Here are some 1500 Pistons that I found here on TheSamba.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=162898

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=153740

I contacted the second guy, he's got the best price and only was charging $10 to ship them to California. But after some consternation, I decided that I wanted to get a little more power out of the motor, so that meant getting an 85.5 mm P & C kit. After careful contemplation I chose these.

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C24%2D311%2D198%2D069%2DF

Incidentally, I also chose to leave the motor as a singleport, so as not to change the tins, oil cooling system, etc. Because I needed new (or rebuilt) heads, and I'm not too keen on rebuilt heads, I also chose these from CIP1. com, only place I could find new singleport heads for this price.

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D311%2D101%2D353%2DAKIT

2 new heads + 1 new P & C kit ~ $500.
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Calisupastarz
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: rebilt? Reply with quote

egspot wrote:
IIf your sp were ported and polished with a single centered carb, they will would be as good or better than a 1600 dp with with a single centered carb.


That's what I'm planning on doing with my rebuild. So I'm going from:

Original (very tired) 1500 singleport, never been rebuilt. Stock 30 Pict-2 carb, stock oil cooler, stock air cleaner, etc.

To:

85.5 pistons & cylinders, ported and polished new singleport heads, new rod, main, & cam bearings, alignment-bored case and decked cylinder spigot surfaces.

Hopefully, when I'm done, I'll have something similar in power to a 1600 DP motor.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RJBeetle66 wrote:
while you're at it, I would advise going with DP heads. From what I heard, DPs are more reliable and obviously give you a bit more bang...plus parts are easier to come by. I've only run DP so I cant speak from experience. Just my $0.02


Very Happy how come there is not a huge smiley when dual port lovers post this???
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 1500 to 1600 Reply with quote

Calisupastarz wrote:
prom8n wrote:
Thanks for the info. Id like to stay with the stock 1500-sp layout, better milage and torque. But if I install 85.5mm pistons with the stock 69mm crank, then I've gone up to 1600cc, right? Looks like there's no way around that. Does anyone still supply affordable 83mm pistons/cylinders?


I am in the process of rebuilding my 1500 SP motor (new heads, pistons, bearings, etc.), so I know what you are going through. You can still find the 83 mm P & Cs, but they are difficult to find in the "major" VW aftermarket suppliers. You don't want the "Big Bore" 83 mm P & Cs, those are for increasing 1200 and 1300 motors to 1500 (I believe, someone correct me if I'm wrong.) Here are some 1500 Pistons that I found here on TheSamba.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=162898

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=153740

I contacted the second guy, he's got the best price and only was charging $10 to ship them to California. But after some consternation, I decided that I wanted to get a little more power out of the motor, so that meant getting an 85.5 mm P & C kit. After careful contemplation I chose these.

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C24%2D311%2D198%2D069%2DF

Incidentally, I also chose to leave the motor as a singleport, so as not to change the tins, oil cooling system, etc. Because I needed new (or rebuilt) heads, and I'm not too keen on rebuilt heads, I also chose these from CIP1. com, only place I could find new singleport heads for this price.

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D311%2D101%2D353%2DAKIT

2 new heads + 1 new P & C kit ~ $500.



I would be very suspicious of those single port heads. I just read their ad it it is a lie. Brand new single port heads have been available during the past two years. I bought three sets about a year and a half ago, built three engines and got all three engines back. On two sets, the valve guides were such poor quality that they disintegrated after about 200 miles. On the third set, the casting was so poor, it developed an exhaust leak through the port, through the cooling fins. Now I only use and sell rebuilt German heads and I haven't had any problems since.
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bill may
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have 6 sets 1967 single port heads on the shelf in my garage. at this time all 3 engines in my cars are 1600 sp (all are 67 engines except one )
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 1500 to 1600 Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
Calisupastarz wrote:
prom8n wrote:
Thanks for the info. Id like to stay with the stock 1500-sp layout, better milage and torque. But if I install 85.5mm pistons with the stock 69mm crank, then I've gone up to 1600cc, right? Looks like there's no way around that. Does anyone still supply affordable 83mm pistons/cylinders?


I am in the process of rebuilding my 1500 SP motor (new heads, pistons, bearings, etc.), so I know what you are going through. You can still find the 83 mm P & Cs, but they are difficult to find in the "major" VW aftermarket suppliers. You don't want the "Big Bore" 83 mm P & Cs, those are for increasing 1200 and 1300 motors to 1500 (I believe, someone correct me if I'm wrong.) Here are some 1500 Pistons that I found here on TheSamba.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=162898

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=153740

I contacted the second guy, he's got the best price and only was charging $10 to ship them to California. But after some consternation, I decided that I wanted to get a little more power out of the motor, so that meant getting an 85.5 mm P & C kit. After careful contemplation I chose these.

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C24%2D311%2D198%2D069%2DF

Incidentally, I also chose to leave the motor as a singleport, so as not to change the tins, oil cooling system, etc. Because I needed new (or rebuilt) heads, and I'm not too keen on rebuilt heads, I also chose these from CIP1. com, only place I could find new singleport heads for this price.

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D311%2D101%2D353%2DAKIT

2 new heads + 1 new P & C kit ~ $500.



I would be very suspicious of those single port heads. I just read their ad it it is a lie. Brand new single port heads have been available during the past two years. I bought three sets about a year and a half ago, built three engines and got all three engines back. On two sets, the valve guides were such poor quality that they disintegrated after about 200 miles. On the third set, the casting was so poor, it developed an exhaust leak through the port, through the cooling fins. Now I only use and sell rebuilt German heads and I haven't had any problems since.


I agree with you Roy. I would MUCH prefer rebuilding used German heads then buying new "after market" heads. Have a good machine shop do the rebuild and get a three angle valve job.
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**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
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Calisupastarz
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 1500 to 1600 Reply with quote

wcfvw69 wrote:
I agree with you Roy. I would MUCH prefer rebuilding used German heads then buying new "after market" heads. Have a good machine shop do the rebuild and get a three angle valve job.


The parts should arrive today, I'll inspect them closely and if they look substandard I'll return them and get rebuilt heads. Thanks for the advice and warning, it is very much appreciated.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well let me ask this question ......My 40 hp 1200cc motor has a bearing knocking in it. I took it out and put in a 1500 (53 hp) motor for a temporary fix. I want to rebuild the 40 hp block and make it bigger, is it worth it ? Can I even make it a 1500 cc or 1600 cc with that og block ?
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