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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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 Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject: Q: Wheel offset |
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So after using the SEARCH for several hours, (here and on the net) I sort of find the following:
The ET or EinpressTiefe of wheels seems to be the following (14, 15 and 16 inch):
5.5 is around 35 or 39 mm
6.0 and 6.5 are 30 mm
7 (only found one) is 23mm
I want to use a 7.5x16 wheel. It has an ET or 46. I did a trial fit and know I need longer studs and spacers. Just sort of guessiing based on the other rims I would want an ET of around 15 or so. That right? A 30 mm spacing needed? I tried to balance precentages and other math games and did not like my results, really which indicated even a smalller ET. So what determines a good ET rather than just adding a spacer that causes no rubbing? Question is:
What ET should I shoot for with the 7.5 rim?????
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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Petervw
Samba Member
Joined: July 04, 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Sarnia Ont. Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Q: Wheel offset |
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I have a 6" with a 45ET (215 tires)on my syncro with no spacers... to have the same inner wheel wall space as my own set-up you would need to have at least an ET26 or Less if the tire you choose is really wide...the outside of the rim is extended about 38mm from the stock 14" steel wheel ET39...you could play around with one of the wheel-offset calculators and also watch out that the wheel and tire are not so wide as to hit the sliding door when open..at this point you will have to use your measureing tape....
| r39o wrote: |
So after using the SEARCH for several hours, (here and on the net) I sort of find the following:
The ET or EinpressTiefe of wheels seems to be the following (14, 15 and 16 inch):
5.5 is around 35 or 39 mm
6.0 and 6.5 are 30 mm
7 (only found one) is 23mm
I want to use a 7.5x16 wheel. It has an ET or 46. I did a trial fit and know I need longer studs and spacers. Just sort of guessiing based on the other rims I would want an ET of around 15 or so. That right? A 30 mm spacing needed? I tried to balance precentages and other math games and did not like my results, really which indicated even a smalller ET. So what determines a good ET rather than just adding a spacer that causes no rubbing? Question is:
What ET should I shoot for with the 7.5 rim????? |
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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I played around with 3 or 4 of those "calculators." They would not spit out an ET. You had to tell it what you were going to use.
I placed my wheels on my van with 225 60-16s and no rub on the back at all. In the front, I need like around 10mm to clear for the rim. I am going with a narrower tire like a 215 65-16 or 215 70-16, I think. So rubbing is not a big concern.
My really BIG concern is to get the ET right so my turning and wheel bearing loading remain the same Do not want to shorten the service life of things. Hence my question.
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5549
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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Factory Vanagon steel wheels had were 5½" wide with a 39mm offset. The factory Vanagon alloy wheels were 6" wide with a 30mm offset.
Ideally, you would want to find a wheel that has an offset somewhere in between these numbers.
I can play with offsets all day long on paper but the only true test is going to be to pull of the stock wheels and offer up your new alloys to make a determination as to how much spacer is called for. Ideally, you will want to have the tires that you intend to run mounted up to check for any clearance issues with those as well.
In my opinion, many times people leave way too much room in between the suspension components and the wheel/tire. I have approximately 2mm between my wheels and the upper control arm. That's cutting it pretty close but I have NEVER had any interference issues at all. Just to be on the safe side, I would recommend that you try to keep the clearance between 3-6mm max. This will keep your 7½" wide wheels as close to the stock positioning in the wheelwell as possible.
Ideally, when adding wider wheels, it's best to split the width difference evenly inboard and outboard. This would mean that you would need to stay within that 30-39mm offset range. The only problem that can arise is that the wheels could start causing interference with the front suspension components. At that point, your only choice is to start moving more of the wheel outboard. If you go too far with this, the consequences are that the tires could start rubbing/catching on the fender lips as well as the steering getting heavier.
If I were in your position, I would pick up a hand full of washers big enough to slide over the wheel bolts. Place three of your new, longer wheel bolts through the new front wheel (with it off the car of course). Now place 4-5 washer on each of the three bolts. Use a little tape to hold them in position while you mount the wheel onto the hub. Then stick your head into the wheelwell to check for clearances. Like I said earlier, I would shoot for the wheel/tire to be around 3-6mm from any suspension component. If you have say 15mm of clearance, you know that you can remove 10 or so mm worth of washer and still have good clearance. Once you do this, all you have to do is measure the thickness of the remaining washers and that is your ideal spacer thickness.
For the rear, you could do the same thing to check for sliding door or trailing clearance.
I'm sure that you have thought of this but just in case, remember that your new front and rear rotors will add some thickness to your hub in escence acting like a spacer.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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Petervw
Samba Member
Joined: July 04, 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Sarnia Ont. Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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I would venture to guess an ET20/21 (kinda like finding X)...you could try calling ronal wheels usa or go westy for there ET recommendations...my friend has an ET20 on his 7.5"/tires215..he can't go any wider because the sliding door will hit the tire...
| r39o wrote: |
I played around with 3 or 4 of those "calculators." They would not spit out an ET. You had to tell it what you were going to use.
I placed my wheels on my van with 225 60-16s and no rub on the back at all. In the front, I need like around 10mm to clear for the rim. I am going with a narrower tire like a 215 65-16 or 215 70-16, I think. So rubbing is not a big concern.
My really BIG concern is to get the ET right so my turning and wheel bearing loading remain the same Do not want to shorten the service life of things. Hence my question. |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5549
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Peter, if you are running a 45mm offset with a 6" wheel, Walt should "theoretically" be able to run a 25mm offset on his 7½" wheel and have exactly the same clearances that you have.
I would LOVE to know exactly how much clearance you have between your wheel/tire and the suspension components. The reason that I would like to know is because "on paper" I have calculated that a person could run a 30mm ofset with a 7½" wide wheel. Knowing exactly how much clearance you have would tell me exactly what offset could be run.
I don't know if this is possible for you to do but if you find the time, I would like to know the distance from the tire to your upper control and the distance from your steering knuckle to your wheel. Are you running 15's or 16's?
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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Chris,
Next week I should be doing front mook ups. I have a loose front suspension to practice on. I have just about all my front stuff figured out and will be able to give better measurements then.
For now, just for rough ideas, if I add about 10mm as a spacer the lip of the rim just would start to touch the uppper ball joint. But, as stated, I will be better ideas in the coming weeks. So that's about ET 25, minimumly, as a rough starting point for 7.5x16
Besides the obvious clearance issues, I want to be sure I do not unevenly load the bearings. It is very important to me to be sure I get this right.
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5549
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| r39o wrote: |
| For now, just for rough ideas, if I add about 10mm as a spacer the lip of the rim just would start to touch the uppper ball joint. But, as stated, I will be better ideas in the coming weeks. So that's about ET 25, minimumly, as a rough starting point for 7.5x16 |
So, maybe I'm confused but if you added a 10mm spacer to your 46mm wheels, wouldn't that make the effective offset 36mm? If a 10mm spacer causes the wheel to barely touch the suspension, a 13mm spacer should give you and effective offset of 33mm and still provide enough clearance. Maybe I'm just confused.
| r39o wrote: |
| Besides the obvious clearance issues, I want to be sure I do not unevenly load the bearings. It is very important to me to be sure I get this right. |
Exactly. This is why I feel that it necessary to keep the offset as close to the factory 30-39mm as possible regardless of how wide the wheel is. But like I also said, the wheel and the suspension can't occupy the same space so sometimes a compromise has to be made. Minimizing this compromise means pushing that wheel as close to the suspension as possible without causing interference.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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Petervw
Samba Member
Joined: July 04, 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Sarnia Ont. Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:39 am Post subject: |
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I agree in theory that the 7.5" wheel only needs a 25-26ET offset to make it work...but this would only be for the syncro..I don't know anything about the 2wdr. ...unfortunately I can not give the measurements you require at the moment because the van has been put away for winter storage and is sitting on older tires and steel rims...if memory serves me right, the alloy wheel was 1/4" away from the upper control arm,so you might just be correct with the 30ET...when driving the van, my wheels are the 15x6 audi/45ET with no spacers...tire size is the 215/75...to go to a wider tire, I would have to add a spacer at least in the rear...sooner or later I will have to add longer studs in the front plus spacers all around etc and bring out the wheels 5-8mm and maybe go with a taller tire...
| loogy wrote: |
Peter, if you are running a 45mm offset with a 6" wheel, Walt should "theoretically" be able to run a 25mm offset on his 7½" wheel and have exactly the same clearances that you have.
I would LOVE to know exactly how much clearance you have between your wheel/tire and the suspension components. The reason that I would like to know is because "on paper" I have calculated that a person could run a 30mm ofset with a 7½" wide wheel. Knowing exactly how much clearance you have would tell me exactly what offset could be run.
I don't know if this is possible for you to do but if you find the time, I would like to know the distance from the tire to your upper control and the distance from your steering knuckle to your wheel. Are you running 15's or 16's? |
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rs4-380
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 449
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:56 am Post subject: |
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the problem with just doing it by math with these vans is that you are constricted by both clearance on the inside and outside.
It's easy enough to do the calculation for offset on a 7.5" wheel that gives you the same inner wheel clearance as a 5.5" wheel, but then you've got to factor in that doing that leaves you with 2 additional inches of width on the outer edge of the wheel. When you add to that a different size of tires (that could have more or less sidewall bulge), the math breaks down.
Here is a simple way of calculating how much (in inches) the wheel projects in from the hub face (not the tire, the wheel)
(wheel width (in inches) / 2) + ((offset (in mm) - spacer width (in mm)) * 25.4)
and how much it will project out from the hub face
(wheel width (in inches) /2) - ((offset (in mm)- spacer width (in mm)) * 25.4)
you can substitute for any variable.
_________________
Dave
87 EJ25 Syncro GL
Last edited by rs4-380 on Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5549
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| rs4-380 wrote: |
| the problem with just doing it by math with these vans is that you are constricted by both clearance on the inside and outside. |
Exactly! But we know that a 16x7.5 wheel WILL fit within the front fenderwell without interfering with the fender lip or the suspension components. Therefore, the only real issue becomes "how close can I get the wheel to the suspension components without causing any intereference". Positioning the 7.5" wide wheel inboard as far as possible means that you would be placing that wheel as close to the optimum position (for wheels bearings and steering geometry) as is possible.
I guess what I'm saying is that since we know that Walt has enough offset in his wheels that by adding the correct thickness of spacer, he will be able to position his wheels right in that ideal position, he does not need to be concerned with the fender lip at all. If someone were asking "will my 16x7.7 ET20 wheels fit on my van that has been lowered 60mm?", then we would have to be concerned about the fender lip.
Ideally, it would be nice to have the exact wheel and tire on hand to help answer a person who asked "will it fit?" or "how much spacer do I need?" but since that's usually not the case, math is the only thing that only tool left for us to try to help a guy out, you know?
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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rs4-380
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 449
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| loogy wrote: |
| math is the only thing that only tool left for us to try to help a guy out, you know? |
I'm not saying it doesn't have any value. I'm saying it's far from perfect for these applications.
_________________
Dave
87 EJ25 Syncro GL |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5549
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| rs4-380 wrote: |
I'm not saying it doesn't have any value. I'm saying it's far from perfect for these applications. |
I agree completely. I hope that it didn't come across as being argumentative. I was just trying to point out that without an exact replica of the given situation, all we can do is calculate the known differences and hopefully come out with close, if not exact, answer.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| loogy wrote: |
| r39o wrote: |
| For now, just for rough ideas, if I add about 10mm as a spacer the lip of the rim just would start to touch the uppper ball joint. But, as stated, I will be better ideas in the coming weeks. So that's about ET 25, minimumly, as a rough starting point for 7.5x16 |
So, maybe I'm confused but if you added a 10mm spacer to your 46mm wheels, wouldn't that make the effective offset 36mm? If a 10mm spacer causes the wheel to barely touch the suspension, a 13mm spacer should give you and effective offset of 33mm and still provide enough clearance. Maybe I'm just confused. |
This morning, I can not tell you how I got at that number! (Last night, the kids were running around and the wife....you know) Sure a 10mm or 3/8 inch would get me to about ET 36. That is right.
Then again, earlier in the day, I tried to create a linear relation between the 5.5, 6.0 and 7.0 inch offsets. That led to an offset around ET 20, which I thought was wacky. (The 7 ET 23 being a non factory single data point.) Then Petervw wrote about his buddy has ET 20 with a 7.5 rim too. So maybe it is not so wacky.
BTW: The sliding door issue can be addresses with aa extension mod to the black painted U shaped link of the sliding mechanism.
I am not a mechanical / automotive engineer so I am basically guessing at this ET stuff and the real effects that may come into play..
| loogy wrote: |
| r39o wrote: |
| Besides the obvious clearance issues, I want to be sure I do not unevenly load the bearings. It is very important to me to be sure I get this right. |
Exactly. This is why I feel that it necessary to keep the offset as close to the factory 30-39mm as possible regardless of how wide the wheel is. But like I also said, the wheel and the suspension can't occupy the same space so sometimes a compromise has to be made. Minimizing this compromise means pushing that wheel as close to the suspension as possible without causing interference. |
Keeping to ET 30 -39 means we disregard the the wheel width. (Interferance issues not regarded.) If wheel width meant nothing, then the factory would, most likely, stay with one offset too. That is why I am concerned that just sticking to that ET range. My guess is the percentage of wheel presented to either side of the center line of the wheel means something. I just don't know what that is!
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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rs4-380
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2006
Posts: 449
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| r39o wrote: |
| My guess is the percentage of wheel presented to either side of the center line of the wheel means something. I just don't know what that is! |
I don't have any hard facts, just years of experience running spacers on my own cars and dealing with other peoples setups, and I'll say that unless you are going 20mm + you really don't have to worry about it, and even then, its not like your bearings are all the sudden going to die after 5000 miles. The biggest thing you need to worry about is getting the correct stud/lug length, which many people overlook or try and cheap out on.
_________________
Dave
87 EJ25 Syncro GL |
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Dave,
Thanks. Balancing real word with what a calculation says is always good.
I have been refining my searches. Here for example:
http://www.procarcare.com/icarumba/resourcecenter/...wheels.asp
they sort of state what you state. Look in their offset section.
BUT, I am still digging. I wll find what I need.
I prefer only to use somewhat longer studs and thin spacers as per above, but it to be noted that since our wheels are lug centeric we have to be careful not to make them too long or risk the chance of them failing. Not good.
MUST BE SAFE!
Search on dude....
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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r39o
Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9800
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject: Another quote: |
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| http://www.jeeptech.com/wheel/ wrote: |
A large amount of offset can change the leverage and the loads on axle or wheel bearings and so if possible you should stay (within reason) close to the stock wheel offset. In addition to changing the load on the bearings changing the offset significantly will change the turning radius (of the tire) and may effect both steering response and steering stability. |
But what should the stock offset be? 5.5 and 6 inch have different offsets.
Or should I just prescribe to the theory of leaving the center line of the wheel in the same place which means, just as above.
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5549
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| r39o wrote: |
| But what should the stock offset be? 5.5 and 6 inch have different offsets |
Take your pick.
See, here's the thing, the factory seemed to feel that it was OK to run wheels with two different offsets, 30mm and 39mm. This places the centerline of each of those wheels 9mm apart. 9mm is the range that VW felt was a safe range to work within. This is why I recommended that it would be best to stay within these two offsets if you can help it. And just for the record, the inner lip of the steel wheel sits roughly 2mm further inboard than the 6" wheel.
If the offset of a any given wheel is the same as a wheel of a different width, the centerlines of those two wheels will always be in exactly the same position when the wheels are mounted on the hub. It doesn't matter if the wheels 5" wide or 15" wide. This is because offset is based on thw wheels centerline.
For example, if you had a 5.5" wide wheel and a 7.5" wheel, both with a 30mm offset, the offset will fall in exactly the same spot in relation to the wheel centerline regardless of it's width. The centerlines of those wheels will be in the same position as well. The only thing that is different about those two wheels and the way that they fit the vehicle are that the 7.5" wheel will sit 1" further inboard and 1" further outboard. This means that the load on the wheel bearing will be exactly the same for both of those wheels.
Now say for instance you are comparing a 5.5" wheel with a 30mm offset and a 7.5" wheel with a 20mm offset. Now the centerline of the 7.5mm wheel has moved outboard by 10mm thereby changing the load on the wheel bearing.
I'm running a 32mm offset wheel. The centerline of my wheels are within that 30-39mm range and therfore, according to VW's practice, is a safe range for the load on the wheel bearings. Running a wheel with a 20mm offset, regardless of it's width, is putting the centerline of the wheel 10mm outside of VW's range which obviously puts more load on the wheel bearings.
However, I do agree with rs4-380 in that a 20mm offset will not have any noticable affect on the wheels bearings. If you had bearings that were in crappy shape or way out of adjustment, the lack of offset would more than likely amplify any problems whereas a 30-39mm offset might not.
You have the opportunity with your 46mm wheels to really fine tune the position of your wheels by the use of whatever spacer you want. The people who are running a 20mm offset wheel do not have that luxury. Short of machining the wheels they are stuck with what they have got, right or wrong.
Keeping your spacers as thin as possible goes hand in hand with keeping your wheels as close to the suspension components as possible. I think that you will find that the suspension components will dictate a final position that will also provide you with an offset that will fall neatly within the "safe zone".
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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Petervw
Samba Member
Joined: July 04, 2005
Posts: 1020
Location: Sarnia Ont. Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| just wanted to say that my friends 7.5" wheels with the et20 just looks like an expensive after market project...it doesn't do anything for the van...they stick out too far to the outside along with huge amounts of space on the inner side...also when I mounted my wheels I had gone to the tire store and had them put on a tire from there used or scrape pile for testing purposes |
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laffin_boy
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Joined: September 18, 2006
Posts: 20
Location: Trinity cty, Ca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Walt,
FWIW, I calculated the thickness of the necessary spacer for my 16 x 7 Audi rims by measuring everything while the van was on jackstands and so the ft suspension was at it's full lower travel limit. The rims are an ET45 and I used a 1/2" spacer - making the effective offset 32mm. But when my 83 Vanagon is back down on the ground I can stick my little finger between the wheel & suspension, giving me something like 3/8" clearance under most driving conditions. If I were to do it over i'd find the suspension travel point where the clearance is minium, which is probably the lower limit point, and set that clearance for a mm or two. IOW, I probably could have used a 3/8" spacer or less.
Tom
(who's on an "extended camping trip" and trying
to find the time to do a review of his new 2.1 L/B) |
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