| Author |
Message |
rustwagens
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2005
Posts: 29
Location: olympia, wa
|
 Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: pistons |
 |
|
| i have a 69 square and was wondering about slip in pistons into a type 3, are they type 3 specific? also how big can you go (piston size) and what does that make from the engine( like 1641 or what?) thanks i'm new to the engine side of things |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76897
Location: Sneaking up behind you
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Don't waste your time with 87 or 88 slip in cylinders. They don't last as long as stock 85.5 and the gain in horse power is minimal.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BGEE68
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2002
Posts: 333
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Glenn wrote: |
| Don't waste your time with 87 or 88 slip in cylinders. They don't last as long as stock 85.5 and the gain in horse power is minimal. |
I disagre about the 87 mm pistons and barrels...the 87s were factory availale in the 60s....yes, they were available from VW!!!
88s are OK if you use the thick wall cylinders from Gene Berg...if they're still available!!! Course, you have to bore the case and heads!
Personally, I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!!
As far as 87s not being worth the effort...they are! As long as you increase the cam and carb(s)!
I maintained 70MPH up the Grapevine on I5 with a 1641cc engine running 87mm cylinders, dual 40mm Kadrons, 041 heads, Engle 110 cam, and a single quiet header! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76897
Location: Sneaking up behind you
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| Personally, I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!! |
What are 90.5 thick walls? All 90.5 have the same thickness.
And I would never bother with 88s. The "slip ins" are thin and will warp. The "machine ins" are not worth it since you might as well go with 90.5s.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| Don't waste your time with 87 or 88 slip in cylinders. They don't last as long as stock 85.5 and the gain in horse power is minimal. |
I disagre about the 87 mm pistons and barrels...the 87s were factory availale in the 60s....yes, they were available from VW!!!
88s are OK if you use the thick wall cylinders from Gene Berg...if they're still available!!! Course, you have to bore the case and heads!
Personally, I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!!
As far as 87s not being worth the effort...they are! As long as you increase the cam and carb(s)!
I maintained 70MPH up the Grapevine on I5 with a 1641cc engine running 87mm cylinders, dual 40mm Kadrons, 041 heads, Engle 110 cam, and a single quiet header! |
I was building VW engines back when these cars were NEW, and VW NEVER offered 87mm pistons for a 1600cc engine.
_________________
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 9:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| Don't waste your time with 87 or 88 slip in cylinders. They don't last as long as stock 85.5 and the gain in horse power is minimal. |
I disagre about the 87 mm pistons and barrels...the 87s were factory availale in the 60s....yes, they were available from VW!!!
88s are OK if you use the thick wall cylinders from Gene Berg...if they're still available!!! Course, you have to bore the case and heads!
Personally, I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!!
As far as 87s not being worth the effort...they are! As long as you increase the cam and carb(s)!
I maintained 70MPH up the Grapevine on I5 with a 1641cc engine running 87mm cylinders, dual 40mm Kadrons, 041 heads, Engle 110 cam, and a single quiet header! |
I was building VW engines back when these cars were NEW, and VW NEVER offered 87mm pistons for a 1600cc engine. |
I don't recall them in the '70s either. In fact, their warranty specifically stated that any modifications voided the warranty.
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BGEE68
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2002
Posts: 333
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 4:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Glenn wrote: |
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| Personally, I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!! |
What are 90.5 thick walls? All 90.5 have the same thickness.
And I would never bother with 88s. The "slip ins" are thin and will warp. The "machine ins" are not worth it since you might as well go with 90.5s. |
I typed: I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!!
I did nothing more than use three periods as a way of writing a pause...the sentence meant, "I run 90.5s, they have thick cylinder walls"
It's a way of saving typing extra words.
I agree on the machine type 88s...why waste the time when 90.5s are available. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BGEE68
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2002
Posts: 333
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:29 pm Post subject: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I was building VW engines back when these cars were NEW, and VW NEVER offered 87mm pistons for a 1600cc engine. |
You are incorrect! Every VW engine had two oversize piston/cylinder sets available, starting with the 40 HP 1200 (1192cc), then the 1300cc (1285cc), 1500cc (1493cc), 1600cc (1584cc).
The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1200 and 1300 were:
77.5mm and 78mm
The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1500 were:
83.5mm and 84mm
The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1600 were:
86mm and 86.5mm
We referred to the 86.5mm oversize set as 87s...
I've been trying to get you to my online pictures so you can view my references, but I haven't been able to make them readable...when I can I will, maybe I can send you guys PMs with photo attachments??? Let me try! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fastback1971
Samba Drummer
Joined: January 02, 2005
Posts: 239
Location: Tri-Cities
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 5:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
This could get interesting. Ive never heard of it either, but Im not an expert.
_________________
I refuse to tiptoe through life, only to arrive safely at death. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76897
Location: Sneaking up behind you
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| Personally, I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!! |
What are 90.5 thick walls? All 90.5 have the same thickness.
And I would never bother with 88s. The "slip ins" are thin and will warp. The "machine ins" are not worth it since you might as well go with 90.5s. |
I typed: I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!!
I did nothing more than use three periods as a way of writing a pause...the sentence meant, "I run 90.5s, they have thick cylinder walls"
It's a way of saving typing extra words.
I agree on the machine type 88s...why waste the time when 90.5s are available. |
I understand the 3 periods. I'm confused about the reference to "thick walls".
You see 88mm come in two different wall thicknesses. One is "Slip In" and they fit in the same hole as a 85.5, then there's "Machine In" which require the case to be opened. For 92s there are the standard 92s which fit in same hole as a 90.5 and then there's the "Thick Walls" which fit in the same hole as a 94mm.
There's only one 90.5, unless you have some one off special cylinders.
.179" = 92mm thickwall
.177" = 88mm machine-in
.163" = 85.5mm
.148" = 90.5mm
.140" = 94mm
.118" = 92mm standard
.114" = 88mm slip-in
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS |
|
|
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I was building VW engines back when these cars were NEW, and VW NEVER offered 87mm pistons for a 1600cc engine. |
You are incorrect! Every VW engine had two oversize piston/cylinder sets available, starting with the 40 HP 1200 (1192cc), then the 1300cc (1285cc), 1500cc (1493cc), 1600cc (1584cc).
The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1200 and 1300 were:
77.5mm and 78mm
The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1500 were:
83.5mm and 84mm
The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1600 were:
86mm and 86.5mm
We referred to the 86.5mm oversize set as 87s...
I've been trying to get you to my online pictures so you can view my references, but I haven't been able to make them readable...when I can I will, maybe I can send you guys PMs with photo attachments??? Let me try! |
They were listed as 1st and second oversize for the factory rebuilt engines. The factory bored the cylinders on their rebuilts. They were never sold off the shelf by the dealers. It was cheaper just to put a set of standard p/c's back in the engine.
Your without guesswork book is a 70 edition. They are only slightly mentioned in the 71 book I have here. And only that they were used. They were never used in production.
_________________
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS |
|
|
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I was building VW engines back when these cars were NEW, and VW NEVER offered 87mm pistons for a 1600cc engine. |
You are incorrect! Every VW engine had two oversize piston/cylinder sets available, starting with the 40 HP 1200 (1192cc), then the 1300cc (1285cc), 1500cc (1493cc), 1600cc (1584cc).
The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1200 and 1300 were:
77.5mm and 78mm
The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1500 were:
83.5mm and 84mm
The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1600 were:
86mm and 86.5mm
We referred to the 86.5mm oversize set as 87s...
I've been trying to get you to my online pictures so you can view my references, but I haven't been able to make them readable...when I can I will, maybe I can send you guys PMs with photo attachments??? Let me try! |
I don't know what "factory" you were trained in, but it sure wasn't the VW factory. Maybe it was The Hoover Co.?
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BGEE68
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2002
Posts: 333
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS |
|
|
| Tram wrote: |
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I was building VW engines back when these cars were NEW, and VW NEVER offered 87mm pistons for a 1600cc engine. |
You are incorrect! Every VW engine had two oversize piston/cylinder sets available, starting with the 40 HP 1200 (1192cc), then the 1300cc (1285cc), 1500cc (1493cc), 1600cc (1584cc).
The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1200 and 1300 were:
77.5mm and 78mm
The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1500 were:
83.5mm and 84mm
The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1600 were:
86mm and 86.5mm
We referred to the 86.5mm oversize set as 87s...
I've been trying to get you to my online pictures so you can view my references, but I haven't been able to make them readable...when I can I will, maybe I can send you guys PMs with photo attachments??? Let me try! |
I don't know what "factory" you were trained in, but it sure wasn't the VW factory. Maybe it was The Hoover Co.? |
I referenced the 1970 VW Service, Without Guesswork Book for Type 1, 2 and 3.
I attended the following Factory Schools at VW Atlantic:
General I Repair
Front end course
Engine Repairs
If you'd like, and are willing to accept facts, send me your E-mail address and I'll be happy to send you photos of my VW Training Record and the relevant pages from the Without Guesswork Book.
Until then, please be a bit more polite! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BGEE68
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2002
Posts: 333
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Glenn wrote: |
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| Personally, I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!! |
What are 90.5 thick walls? All 90.5 have the same thickness.
And I would never bother with 88s. The "slip ins" are thin and will warp. The "machine ins" are not worth it since you might as well go with 90.5s. |
I typed: I run 90.5s...thick cylinder walls!!!
I did nothing more than use three periods as a way of writing a pause...the sentence meant, "I run 90.5s, they have thick cylinder walls"
It's a way of saving typing extra words.
I agree on the machine type 88s...why waste the time when 90.5s are available. |
I understand the 3 periods. I'm confused about the reference to "thick walls".
You see 88mm come in two different wall thicknesses. One is "Slip In" and they fit in the same hole as a 85.5, then there's "Machine In" which require the case to be opened. For 92s there are the standard 92s which fit in same hole as a 90.5 and then there's the "Thick Walls" which fit in the same hole as a 94mm.
There's only one 90.5, unless you have some one off special cylinders.
.179" = 92mm thickwall
.177" = 88mm machine-in
.163" = 85.5mm
.148" = 90.5mm
.140" = 94mm
.118" = 92mm standard
.114" = 88mm slip-in |
I wasn't referring to the 88s...they do come in two wall thicknesses...
I was only stating that 90.5s have thick cylinder walls...the good reason for using them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76897
Location: Sneaking up behind you
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS |
|
|
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| I referenced the 1970 VW Service, Without Guesswork Book for Type 1, 2 and 3. |
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BGEE68
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2002
Posts: 333
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS |
|
|
| Glenn wrote: |
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| I referenced the 1970 VW Service, Without Guesswork Book for Type 1, 2 and 3. |
|
Thanks Glenn! 
Last edited by BGEE68 on Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76897
Location: Sneaking up behind you
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS |
|
|
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| Thanks Russ! |
It was news to me. I guess you're never too old to learn something new.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BGEE68
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2002
Posts: 333
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS |
|
|
| Glenn wrote: |
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| Thanks Russ! |
It was news to me. I guess you're never too old to learn something new. |
Thanks again Glenn!!! 
Last edited by BGEE68 on Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:11 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: 87mm Piston/Cylinder sets from VW...FACTORY PARTS |
|
|
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
| Factory Trained wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I was building VW engines back when these cars were NEW, and VW NEVER offered 87mm pistons for a 1600cc engine. |
You are incorrect! Every VW engine had two oversize piston/cylinder sets available, starting with the 40 HP 1200 (1192cc), then the 1300cc (1285cc), 1500cc (1493cc), 1600cc (1584cc).
The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1200 and 1300 were:
77.5mm and 78mm
The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1500 were:
83.5mm and 84mm
The oversize piston/cylinders for the 1600 were:
86mm and 86.5mm
We referred to the 86.5mm oversize set as 87s...
I've been trying to get you to my online pictures so you can view my references, but I haven't been able to make them readable...when I can I will, maybe I can send you guys PMs with photo attachments??? Let me try! |
I don't know what "factory" you were trained in, but it sure wasn't the VW factory. Maybe it was The Hoover Co.? |
I referenced the 1970 VW Service, Without Guesswork Book for Type 1, 2 and 3.
I attended the following Factory Schools at VW Atlantic:
General I Repair
Front end course
Engine Repairs
If you'd like, and are willing to accept facts, send me your E-mail address and I'll be happy to send you photos of my VW Training Record and the relevant pages from the Without Guesswork Book.
Until then, please be a bit more polite! |
You join yesterday, and you're lecturing me on forum etiquette? 
Those who know me will tell you that I AM, in fact, being polite.  |
Doesn't matter if I joined yesterday, last month or x number of years ago...I have the training, experience and knowledge to help this forum. That's all I'm trying to do. If 41 years of working on (in dealerships and on my own), modifying and enjoying VWs isn't enough, what is???
If'n your pulling my leg, let me know...I don't know you, so I can only react to your words as they are typed. |
Look, what Russ and I are telling you is that VW NEVER SOLD A BOLT ON BIGGER BORE PISTON AND CYLINDER SET FOR THEIR ENGINES... PERIOD. We're not talking about factory crate engine specs. Whenever we overhauled an engine at the dealer, we installed standard P/C sets. It was ALL you could get from the dealer parts counter.
A modification, whether based on a factory crate engine 1st or 2nd oversized or not is still just that... a modification.
If you want to say that you like bigger Ps and Cs in your engines, that's fine. But DON'T try to tell us that it was a factory approved modification that you got at your dealership parts counter when you were overhauling an engine, because it's not true.
_________________
Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76897
Location: Sneaking up behind you
|
| Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sounds like a simple miscommunication.
Let's leave it at that.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
