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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:43 am Post subject: Turbo/EFI on a budget **NOVEMBER UPDATE!!!!** |
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I've gotten a few PM's now about the engine I intend to run in my 58 Beetle, so I figured I'd better spill the
beans before my fingers get tired of typing.
Basically, people want to know how to get a Turbo/EFI system into their vehicle for a low price, which is also what I wanted to do. There are many different ways to skin the proverbial cat, mine is just one way to do it, so take from this what you can.
O.K., so you are thinking about going Turbo/EFI, but don't know where to start? Well, I'm posting this in the hopes that more people will realize that it's not as hard as it seems, that there are alternatives to carburators, and also that it's not that expensive either.
In my case, high fun-to-dollar ratio was a prime concern, therefore I started shopping for a budget EFI system, and got a rude awakening. Turns out most of the systems out there are more than $900 out the door (my entire budget!); that is until my brother told me about Megasquirt. Long story short, I ended up with the version 2.2 ECU from the MS website in kit form for somewhere around $175.
That includes the parts kit, and the stim board to test it, once assembled. I also aquired various support electronics that I felt were going to be useful down the road, and ended up getting a laptop for tuning, an Apex digital boost controller, and a HKS turbo timer all for $200 from some ricer that maxed out his credit cards ricing out his Evo. He had to sell me his stuff to pay his credit card debt. Anyway, I assembled the ECU, cleaned the porn and viruses off the laptop, and reloaded the software, and there's the EFI electronics for $375. Other small things will still be needed, like a pump, regulator, injectors, throttle body, and the lines, but all that stuff can be had for less than $50 at the junkyard. Now I'm at $425.
Also, I ended up buying a Techedge wideband oxygen sensor. Not a required item, but very useful, and it's been paying for itself anyway due to being rented out to my friends on occasion.
Next, I got a turbo header from CB Perf ($280), dual port end castings for EFI with fuel rails ($181), and a couple turbo's and intercoolers from the junkyards (in all about $100).
That brings the running total to $986, so I'm a little over budget, but not by much. Assuming you already have a running engine that is suitable for this kind of conversion, I'm positive anyone can build an EFI system like this even for less than I have. There are cheaper alteratives to some of the parts, like using VW FI end castings (FI Beetle), and welding your own header. _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
Last edited by miniman82 on Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:18 pm; edited 12 times in total |
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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Shown below are the Techedge wideband at left, the laptop, and the MS brain at right.
Next, a mockup of the engine. I decided to run the TB and turbo stuff behind the shroud, so I can close the decklid, and also so nobody can see what I have under there even if they looked.
The header and turbo will be hidden behind the firewall, the only visable parts will be the injectors and intakes.
Behind the engine. The intercooler will be mounted somewhere above the passenger axle tube, with ducting to direct air thru it. Same goes for the oil cooler, but on the other side.
The turbo housing was clocked to point down into the intercooler, but it may change later due to unseen design changes. I may have to mount the intercooler horizontally for clearance, for example.
Also, as you can see in the photo, the rear exhaust tubes will need to be modified to go under the engine. The mid engine header was designed for buggies, but can easily be modified to work in a Beetle with some cutting and welding.
_________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Mr. Loaf Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2005 Posts: 2098 Location: Okra, Oklahoma
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: Turbo |
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Looks like you are going in the right direction! I might be a little concerned though where your turbo is. Don't know what you are using this engine for, drags(?), but I would think that the excess heat from the turbo and exhaust is going to be used by your cooling fan and will cause your motor to run a lot hotter than if the turbo was mounted some where else. _________________ Never drive faster than your Angel can fly
$24,100 was too hard to resist................. |
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vwdmc16 Samba Member
Joined: January 12, 2006 Posts: 1734 Location: sacramento, CA
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Kalen1970 Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2004 Posts: 356 Location: Tallahassee, Fl
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Turbo |
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MikeyStuff wrote: |
Looks like you are going in the right direction! I might be a little concerned though where your turbo is. Don't know what you are using this engine for, drags(?), but I would think that the excess heat from the turbo and exhaust is going to be used by your cooling fan and will cause your motor to run a lot hotter than if the turbo was mounted some where else. |
Same thoughts here. your pre\heating the air you are blowing over your cylinders. Sucking it over a really hot turbo. _________________ 1970 - Separated from the Pan again for a proper rebuild *fingers crossed* |
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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: Turbo |
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Kalen1970 wrote: |
Same thoughts here. your pre\heating the air you are blowing over your cylinders. Sucking it over a really hot turbo. |
The turbo system will be seperated from the engine by the firewall, it's compartmentalized. There will only be a hole big enough for the charge tube to fit through, and I'll seal that off with a grommit or something. The engine will draw cooling air in the normal way, from the vents above the lid. If it ends up getting hot, I'll run standoffs.
This will be my daily driver, BTW.
I'm betting there will be a good amount or heat shielding required to help guard against heat soak, we'll see what happens. The oil cooler has a dedicated fan, but at the moment, the intercooler does not. _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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shegel Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2006 Posts: 378 Location: Kennewick, WA
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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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I have the MS122-K kit, the _BL one has a black case.
Looks like prices have gone down quite a bit since I bought mine. _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Urnge74 Samba Member
Joined: June 18, 2004 Posts: 417 Location: FlorDUH
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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what type of throttle bodies/injectors are you using? _________________ Baton Rouge Aircoolers |
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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 12:14 am Post subject: |
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I'm using CB Performance dual port end castings that have injector bosses in them, they will be plumbed to a single throtle body. I have Ford 2.3T 370cc/min low Z injectors, but depending on how far I decide to take it, I may need bigger. _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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turboedbug Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2006 Posts: 260 Location: washington
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:04 am Post subject: |
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What kind of fuel pump and regulator you planning on running? |
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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure on the pump yet, but I'm confident the Ford Econoline pump recommended by the MS guys will be enough. If it doesn't have enough volume, I'll have to step up to something like an Aeromotive.
As for the regulator, I got one from CB when I bought the header. It's a Malpassi boost referenced reg, but I'm unsure about the ratio. CB's info sheets don't say if they are rising rate or not, but it should work fine. _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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turboedbug Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2006 Posts: 260 Location: washington
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:00 am Post subject: |
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Awsome, keep us posted. I am currently building something simular |
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dereke Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 154
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: |
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mmm... sure it will sucked hot air by any means |
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seabeebuggy Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2005 Posts: 2395 Location: NM, CA, UT and now NV
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Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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miniman82 wrote: |
As for the regulator, I got one from CB when I bought the header. It's a Malpassi boost referenced reg, but I'm unsure about the ratio. CB's info sheets don't say if they are rising rate or not, but it should work fine. |
Why would you use a boost referenced regulator? with EFI? carbs yes. but the boost pressure would not affect the injectors right? asking because I dont know. _________________ Seabee turbo buggy build
(Quote Runslikeapenguin said)
so to everyone else whos not a retarded butt pirate marine with an tacky ugly ass car covered in auto zone bolt and stick on s**t. (end quote)
A better place to talk offroad |
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Rude-e Samba Member
Joined: May 31, 2006 Posts: 139
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Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Rissing rate regulators are used on FI engines also - as a cheap alternative for fuel management(boost increases, so does fuel). With programable EFI it is not a necessity because you can adjust Fuel injector pulse width and other parameters. |
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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:17 am Post subject: |
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It might appear on the surface that a regulator is not necessary with FI, because as was said, you can just add more fuel. In reality, this is not the case. Even factory FI systems are referanced to vacuum, the reason is it increases the resolution of the injectors.
Without the reg referanced to vac/boost, you would hit 100 percent duty cycle quickly, because the only way to add more fuel, would be to increase pulsewidth. You could compensate with bigger injectors, but at some point, the injectors would get so big you would be unable to control them at idle, leading to poor running (you can only shorten the pulewidth to a point). On the flip side, if you had injectors that ran well at idle, it is entirely possible that without being boost referanced you could end up with the injectors being always on!
Either way, the reg makes the injectors easier to control because now you have more than one way to increase the fuel flow through the injectors, it's just that you don't see what the regulator does on your laptop.
Without one, your fuel map would be pretty wild, I bet.
You need a boost reg on blow-through carb because without it, the boost pressure would force the fuel entering the float bowl back to where it came from, and the engine would starve. _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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66 Käfer Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2003 Posts: 217 Location: Cooper City
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Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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I like where you are going with this, Megasquirt would be my choice also to do an EFI set-up but why did you go with the mid-engine header? If it is for a daily driver why didn't you go with the hide-away header? They are only $245 and a lot less modifiyng to make it work.
Just wondering, that's all. Over all it is pretty much the same direction I would take, using a single throttle body simplifies things a bit. |
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miniman82 Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005 Posts: 9515 Location: Southern Maryland
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Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:44 am Post subject: |
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I went mid-engine header because I didn't want anyone to see what I had, and the hideaway one didn't really appeal to me because it's a little too cluttered. Don't get me wrong, it works good for a lot of people, it's just that I wanted a clean looking engine bay. The only way I could do that, was by swapping the end castings around, and running the entire system behind the firewall with the mid-engine header.
The only thing visible in my engine bay will be the engine.
I don't mind cutting the package tray, it's my POS car, it'll probably end up primer grey. _________________ Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
Glenn wrote: |
satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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66 Käfer Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2003 Posts: 217 Location: Cooper City
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Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 5:52 am Post subject: |
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That's cool, I see what you mean, but you have to admit that it is a lot better then the blow-through set-up...
Keep the picture coming, I'd like to see how it comes out.
I can see it...
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