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Winston the Westy and the Router Hollows...
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msinabottle
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:21 pm    Post subject: Winston the Westy and the Router Hollows... Reply with quote

This last week has been... Interesting.

Well, you probably have gleaned that our resident Dogpilot sold me his old 15" Audi TT 5000 rims and Michelin Agilis tires when he decided to move his beautiful Syncro--no hyperbole, that thing is incredible--up to 16" rims. Cheapest way to ship them was FedEx ground, Dogpilot is a prince of a fellow and we've been chatting off and on since and before the sale.

He'd bored out the stud holes himself, he'd had a machine shop bore out the central holes to 66mm., and to my horror that wasn't enough when I tried, Wednesday--the nicest day we've had up here in MONTHS--to get them over Winston's front oil caps. No way in Hades, White Boy. Can't fault and I don't fault Dogpilot, he was working with a Syncro and dealt in good faith. So what to do?

Well, a Dremel was out. There is, as the posts here and on the old Vanagon lists point out, a LOT of metal to get out of the way. So much so that I wore out two grinding stones and spent four hours with them on a drill making almost NO progress.

Well, the solution was on the Samba... Like the fellow said, you don't want to go back to a machine shop with the wheels mounted and balanced, it'd be start over time. The wheels are centered on the bolts, so you don't have to be TOO careful about routing out the centers... and a router is what was called for. I've always been a little afraid of them. I don't own one, either, but I do have a good friend who owns three and he would, with cautions, let me borrow his oldest and smallest one, that had no trouble at all with the job.

We went down to Lowes and I got a Bosch carbide spiral bit, downward spiral to hold the router down and to direct the shavings downwards. I did the routing over a heavy plastic garbage can, which caught the shavings that didn't go into the air, over the street, behind my ears, and down my collar. I was wearing a full-face mask and a shop apron, and still got covered, fortunately aluminum alloy shavings aren't as horrid as ferrous metal shards.

My friend made me a little wooden gauge 2 5/8" in diameter, with rounded edges, I used that to make sure that the cuts I was making and trying very hard to keep circular were wide enough to accommodate Winston's big front dust caps. I did all five rims, for complete interchangeability.

Well, it went... I'd never used a router for any length of time in my life, I got to thinking of it as 'the Dremel Tool from Hell.' It was hard making the cuts even and regular, but I did, and only one thing went wrong---I made the cut uniform to about an inch or a bit more in depth, which I didn't need to do especially, the dust covers taper--and on two or three of the rims, just the tip of the cutter went through the outer cone of the rims.

It's not terribly visible, but I'm wondering if I could patch them with some silver epoxy putty or the like--I might add another coat of the paint that Dogpilot mentioned. If I can get the old central hub covers to work, and I need one, if anyone's got one, the whole thing won't be visible, it's a cosmetic issue only. There's SCADS of metal all around the bolt holes and in the body of the rim.

I've got a 46mm. socket and the EMPI 'rear axle hub removal tool' MightyArt found at CIP on order. When those arrive, and when I can find a 3/4" breaker bar, then I pull Winston's rear hubs, take them down to a machine shop and get the new studs pressed in-- and then see if I can finally get these rims on Winston.

And I am very tired.
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hiram6
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll bet you could patch up the drill-through areas with a little JB Weld, then grind/sand smooth, and paint. The good thing about a painted face vs. a polished face is paint is easy to refinish.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not quite sure if this will help, but this article helps with repairing minor wheel damage.

http://www.audiworld.com/tech/ext43.shtml
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is a link to a

on site wheel repair

http://www.mobilewheelrepair.com/index.htm
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:48 pm    Post subject: Thank You! Reply with quote

Yes, J.B. Weld and the Dupli-Color High Performance Wheel Coating Dogpilot used and suggested in a note seem to be the way to go. I'll do that tomorrow, it's expected to be 72 degrees. Today I removed the last of the glaciers surrounding Winston, which were inconvenient.

Thank you for the suggestions, dear friends. I still might get those central plastic disc covers (anybody got any?) for the remaining two weels and paint over the Audi circles, but I'll see what's possible once the rims are mounted. Still waiting for the tools for the rear axle nuts.

Best!
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've had audi rims turned to fit my 2wd vanagon and though I had given a parts rotor to assure fitment.. I forgot to include the greasecap. speedo drive..

was a tad perplexed when I went to fit to my van, but had a revelation to remove the cap, install the rim/wheel and refit the cap.. but my Audi rims are differant then yuor 5000 rims.. of which I also have experiance.
I have a variety of Audi rims here, and run them on the back of my baja w/vanagon rear axle assemblies (see my gallery)
but it's the front grease cap that is 2wd problematic.. I have a friend who is getting into casting rubber (seals, covers) and am thinking of fabricating/casting a special rubber seal to replace the dust cover and then using the rim 'center cap' with a DIY square hole to drive the speedo.. how much torque/hp does the speedo cable and drive really take. it's a thought anyways all depending on how your rims vary design to design..

dan in NY
vw club of CNY
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:52 pm    Post subject: The Patch Worked Reply with quote

I did just what Dogpilot suggested--bought some J. B. Weld at Wal-Mart, which I had never used before, and some 'Duck Tape' brand aluminum foil tape. I taped over where the router bit came through the cone of the rims with the tape, mixed up the J.B. Weld (in retrospect I should have cleaned the rims much more thoroughly) and laved it into place with a putty knife, pushing the Weld against the tape.

The following morning, I pulled off the tape, and all but one of the holes were completely filled with polymer. Just a bit was left in the center of the worst hole, I repeated the whole procedure yesterday, and today I sanded the areas where the polymer stuck out over the side of the rim cone, and sprayed on three coats of the Dupli-Color. I also painted the three central rim caps Dogpilot had--anybody got a fourth?

If you look CAREFULLY, you can see a very slight irregularity at the worst of the fill, but you have to be looking for it. I'd cheerfully use the rims as they are now for a show entry.

Unfortunately, I can't get them to fit on Winston yet. The 7/16" spacers I'm trying to use put the axle grease caps FLUSH with the end of the rim, which means no center caps of any sort and the grease caps--and the end of my speedo cable exposed. No good. I need to get 3/4" spacers, and I'm having a hard time finding them. But, at least the holes are filled.

Best!
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went though an experience like this with Discount Tire since the wheels I ordered from them would not mount up. At that point I told them that I was going in another direction with the GW wheels. Little did I know the manager forgot to tell them not to drill out the wheels and they ended up doing just that. I bought the tires from them but not the wheels. Those front caps can really cause you trouble since they are so big.

Hopefully everything will work out. Good luck.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C'mon.......
I know you got it.....so post those pics!
I want to see how those new wheels look on the westy. Smile
Before and after pics would be nice. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:10 pm    Post subject: Dog Won't Hunt Yet Reply with quote

Levi, I appreciate your faith in me, but so far, no enchilada. I need at least another 1/4" of space--and right now I'm thinking of getting some cheap 1/4" spacers, some conventional bolts for clamping, and using that J.B. Weld to bond them to the 7/16" spacers.

That'd keep 'em from grinding at each other, create the solid blank of material I need, and get those wheels on Winston.

Anybody got a better idea?

Best!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

also for those reading/following this thread
I don't see any reason you can't trim the Brim off the grease caps.
would just make them a little harder to remove, but I don't take off by the brim anyways, I use waterpump "channel locks" on the sides anyways.

and yes if you are trying to retain use of the audi 5ooo center caps on a 2wd they are difficult to say the least.

on my syncro I was just planning on painting the inside portion black with chrome lugs.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:11 pm    Post subject: Brim Trim Reply with quote

I thought about trimming the lip on the axle end/dust/grease caps... The VW Part Numbers for those, BTW, are:

251 407 691

For the driver's side with the square hole for the speedometer cable

and

311 405 381

for the passenger's side model

But that wouldn't do anything to solve my currently problem, and if I had to rout out the rims anyway--and I did--it made as much sense just to go that little bit further out. I could and should have only gone that last bit out at the end of the cut, though.

Best!
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:06 pm    Post subject: Winston the Westy and the New Alloy Wheels... Reply with quote

Well, I seem to have won the fight. They're on, they're torqued to spec, the covers fit, I drove Winston with them on BAD main streets, BAD residential streets, and acceptable highway at 70 mph, and there was no vibration, no shimmy, no strange sounds (and I was listening) and they look great. Pictures to follow as I have the time.

I started this morning by torquing the front wheel lug nuts to 130 ft/lbs, as Loogy suggested over on the 'Wheels' thread. Since I'd be working on the rear wheels, I wanted the front wheels ready to hold him, if not to drive him, just yet. Then I chocked the front wheels, pulled the hub caps on the stock steel rims, and stared at those axle nuts.

I pulled the cotter pins, careful to get all of them. Then I stared some more. They frightened me. I got out the 'bottle opener' EMPI tool. I put it over the first axle nut. I hit it with a 6 lb. short handled sledge. Nothing happened. I hit it again. It fell off and scored the rim. I put a half-inch breaker bar in the socket. I hit that with the sledge. It fell off.

I didn't have a cheater bar that would fit over the handle of the breaker bar. Dogpilot had broken two. At that moment, I said to myself, 'You will END UP renting a tool to do this. Why not go and rent it early and save the suffering?'

Accordingly, I called:

Adams Equipment Co.
5900 South Broadway
Littleton, CO 80121
Phone: 303 794-9300
Fax: 303 794-8795

and asked if they had an Electric Impact Wrench (which I kept calling a Torque Wrench, because my brain had a short in it) that could generate 400 ft/lbs.

They did. I scurried down there, and a nice fellow named Al started to go and get the electric impact wrench, asking me what I needed to do. I told him--rear axle nut, 46mm., by spec at 360 ft./lbs, probably worse. Al looked thoughtful... He went to the shelf and got down...

THE TORQUE WRENCH FROM HELL!

It was... four feet long. 3/4" drive. It was rated for SIX HUNDRED FOOT/POUNDS OF TORQUE. It was... BEAUTIFUL... and I could rent it. I wanted to rent it. I wanted to show it to that axle nut that had laughed at the bottle opener, and I was laughing myself 'cause when I ordered the bottle opener I'd also ordered a 3/4" drive 46mm. socket and THIS WRENCH COULD USE IT. And if it couldn't budge that nut, I could always come back for the electric impact wrench.

You know that scene in 'Conan, the Barbarian' where he finds that REALLY COOL SWORD in the tomb of an Atlantean General? That's how I felt when I first lifted...

THE TORQUE WRENCH FROM HELL!

It trembled with latent energies... I lifted it... Was it lightning, or just the midday sun glinting off of grease-smudged glistening chrome? But for all my tenor voice and scholarly demeanor, when I raised...

THE TORQUE WRENCH FROM HELL!

I was HE-MAN! I HAD THE POOOOOOWER!

I loaded it into the Saturn I'd just saved from the wrecking yard (actually from being pounced upon by the guys at the shop if I'd let it be junked, they were salivating over it) by $1100--no new upholstery for Winston, for a while--and drove home. Winston trembled. He knew that something dire was in the offing. But neither Winston nor his axle nuts had any idea that I was about to unleash...

THE TORQUE WRENCH FROM HELL!

I slapped on the socket. I flipped the huge, easy to grasp, directional ring on the back of the head. I uttered the words of power, 'Lefty Loosey, Righty, Tighty!' The rear wheels were down firmly on the pavement. And then I slapped socket, implement of destruction, and my shoulder to Winston's driver's side rear axle nut.

He lurched. He lifted... He surged forward, with brakes on, and in gear... and...

NOTHING HAPPENED.

Shocked

I chocked both of Winston's front wheels. I muttered to myself that I am still in reasonably good shape. I tried again. Winston lurched. I switched the chocks to the rear wheels and threw everything I had against that long, glistening handle. THE AXLE NUT WOULD NOT MOVE. I could use this wrench STANDING. When I threw my legs and arms into it, I COULD LIFT THE VAN. THE AXLE NUT WAS RESISTING THE IRRESISTABLE FORCE!

And yet... I own a Vanagon. I am a writer. I am also a Republican. I am very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very. very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very hard to discourage.

And I spent a good long time last night browsing through Samba posts like this one.

Did I have an assistant to hit the bottle opener with a hammer while I used a four foot breaker bar? No <Mightyart>. Did I have the huge electric torque wrench? No. <Dogpilot>. DID I HAVE A RATTY OLD PROPANE TORCH AND A CAN OF LIQUID WRENCH? <type3bandit>

Yes. I did. Very ratty. And I got out that torch, and I got out that can, and tried to keep them well away from each other, and I started heating that nut... and I poured down the Liquid Wrench... And I heated... and I poured... Smoke and Flame... the Balrog Music from the Fellowship of the Ring... Neighborhood children cowering on their tricycles... And before that sucker could cool, I once again applied...

THE TORQUE WRENCH FROM HELL!

And the axle nut... MOVED. I smiled. I grinned. And I got that beast good and loose before I went over and repeated the whole drill in less time on the other nut.

You know, after that, it was pretty anti-climactic. When I pulled both wheels I found that the two drum retention bolts were long gone, so Winston had had alloy wheels in the past, and they'd been swapped back to steel before I got them. And then I praised whoever did the rear brakes, I think it was Nick, the previous owner, because the splines were well-greased, the drums nice and clean, and they came off easily at my touch.

Off came the hubs... I scurried over to my gearhead friend's across the street, who with only slight grumbling interrupted the completion of his huge new tool shed to do the socket (and a nut) and bench vise routine to pop out the old short studs... We couldn't pop in my new EMPI 52mm. racing studs, though, that vise didn't have that kind of torque. I ended up taking the hubs to:

G & S Auto Parts & Machine Shop
5756 S Lowell Blvd
Littleton, CO 80123-2866
(303) 795-1412

They'd helped me with Winston's New Ugly Bumper (NUB) and after measuring the new studs to make sure they wouldn't damage the hubs, they pressed them in completely while I waited about 20 minutes and charged me $15. THAT, dear friends, is a machine shop. Hubs and studs looked great.

I scurried back home. On went the hubs. I did clean the brake mechanism and the drums, being very careful not to breathe the magic brown wishing dust (asbestos) all over them. On went the drums. On went one of the new Audi 5000 15" Turbo wheels. There was no way to tighten that axle nut with those on it. Off went the alloy wheel. On went one of the old steel wheels. Down went the van onto the wheel--I should have bought that 'finger' tool from CIP that hits the ground and keeps the rim from turning, I'll get that next order.

Out came...

THE TORQUE WRENCH FROM HELL!

And that nut torqued back on so easily it wasn't funny. I did have to back it off a hair to get the new cotter pin through and bent into place, but then up went the van, off went the steel wheel, on went the spacers and the new alloy wheel--and it fit. On went the lug bolts. After 7 turns, I started smiling, I think the total was 10 or so. Down went the van.

I repeated the drill, using the steel wheel to keep the drum from turning again, and it was a bit harder to torque the other nut, but it lined up perfectly with the cotter pin hole, so that was lovely. On went the other wheel, on went the lug nuts. I had some trouble getting the bottle jack I was using to lower Winston from the jack stand and still be able to be removed itself. There's a 'zone' you have to be in. MINOR AGGRAVATION.

The last thing that could go wrong (before driving) was the side hatch door. No, no problem there, it didn't hit the new wheels at all... Then it was torquing the rear bolts, proper star pattern, (so horrible the first time I did it, so TRIVIAL after the axle nuts) then it was on with the new center caps I'd bought and painted yesterday. Caps fitted over the cotter pins. Result is very aesthetically pleasing. Not an Audi logo in sight.

I showed that wrench to my gearhead friend and his father, letting him check that I'd set it right. Their eyes bugged. They coveted the wrench. It finished all that I required it to do. The axle nuts were at spec. Then, with regrets, it was back to Adams to return and bid farewell to...

THE TORQUE WRENCH FROM HELL!

And when I brought it around back to the check-in counter (and belatedly remembered to set it to 0), one of the yard men saw it, and said...

"Oh, you rented...

THE TORQUE WRENCH FROM HELL!


That's a semi-sized torque wrench, about $600. Marvelous, isn't it?"

Yes. Yes. Yes, it was. He was of the Brotherhod of the T.W.F.H. And it was $18 for the four hours for which I had used it. And I had the sense to rent it early in the job, instead of at the end of long hours of anguished futility.

Then it was putting away tools for a solid forty five minutes. Then I pressurized all four of the Michelin Agilis on those rims to 45 lbs. Then, and only then, I drove Winston for the first time in three weeks (no lifter noise, btw, let's hear it for Castrol and a Mann oil filter).

Shocked

He drove much better. He cornered much better. He rode much better. He steered so much more easily that I was a bit startled--with those Big O R/T's, steering Winston had always taken a fair amount of effort. He just glides on the new rims... No noise, no vibration, no shimmy or slewing...

I have triumphed. Pictures at:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2102691#2102691

And I am very tired.

Best!
_________________
'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence."


Last edited by msinabottle on Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
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travisandcindy
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I laughed, I cried, and I saved five bucks..... Why do I feel like I was right there with you. You are a good vanagon guy, but a GREAT writer. Thanks for the story. I can't wait for the pictures, but the thousand words were great.

later
travis
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow, I was living your experience...great writing
pics please
I want to see that it was worth it
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Winston the Westy and the New Alloy Wheels... Reply with quote

msinabottle wrote:
I am also a Republican. I am very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very. very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very hard to discourage.

hehehe.... no comment... Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

got any pics yet?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Applause Congrats! Can't wait to see the pics! Made me want to get my own T.W.F.H! Dancing
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I zinged my rear hubs off in about 3 or 4 seconds with our big bad blue impact wrench. The studs popped out with about 3 taps with our big bad bronze mallet. It took about 2 minutes a piece to put the 63 mm ($3.85 ea) Porsche studs in. Then it took about a minute to mount the hubs and hit with the impact wrench again. As a final step we took our ancient VW/Porsche mega foot pound torque wrench and a long pipe to do a final torque while sitting on the ground. Then came the nice shiny new cotter keys. This whole job in the back should not take more than a lazy hour to do.

Can you tell I have done this sort of thing before?

Any VW shop can do it in even less time. Hint, hint....
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:08 pm    Post subject: But it was FUN! Reply with quote

Now that it's safely over and that I've taken around eight aspirin at regular intervals, I can look back at it with only the occasional scream, PTSD or flashback.

Shocked

You can't say that I wasn't careful, either. Oh, and I DID discuss this whole thing with Blazer, my usual, and excellent, VW shop. They don't do wheels. Painters Grinding won't do anything on Vanagons, and I wasn't going up to Boulder. And, hey--it's done!

I miss the you-know-what though... Twisted Evil

I did get an interesting suggestion from a nice fellow at the machine shop--get a long wrench or cheater bar and rest it, on the bolt, against the end of a heavy bottle jack. Eight tons of force tends to get things' attention.

Pictures are up on the Gallery, I'm putting up a message with them up on Loogy's 'Wheels' thread to thank him for the information there and to keep it consolidated, a bit.

Best!
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