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pilcher
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2006
Posts: 162
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 Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:10 am Post subject: Fuel pump help |
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| My fuel pump isnt getting any electrcity to it. its a 73. Do I need a new fuel pump relay?Can someone please respond with at least where to get started? |
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nodrenim
Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2006
Posts: 843
Location: Dobson, North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| I hope that you have checked the fuse? I would next check the wiring plug that attaches the wires to the fuel pump. Sometimes they get corrision and cease to function, this has happened to me on two of my 3's. Or maybe the wire just vibrated loose, I've known that to happen also. This is where I would start. Good Luck! |
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Russ Wolfe
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Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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When you first turn the key on, the pump only runs for about 2 seconds.
Check the fuses, and the wiring. Check the relay under the rear seat.
Check that the computer has power when the key is turned on.
When you first turn the key on, you should here 2 clicks, about 2 seconds apart. This says the computer has power and is alive.
With the key on, ground the connection in the spot of light in that picture. The pump should run continously.
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Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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pilcher
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Joined: October 17, 2006
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| fuses and wiring is good. Fuel pump is brand new. Is the only thing left the relay? and if so does anyone have the part number for it? |
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pilcher
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2006
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| And its not getting electricity from the start. Like its not getting any power inititially. |
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Russ Wolfe
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Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Check the wire from the battery, to the relay next to the voltage regulator under the rear seat. These get corroded. Also check the screw that holds the regulator. It needs to be tight and clean. The screw with the brown wire under it.
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Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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Chory
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2006
Posts: 1318
Location: Jefferson Westside, Eugene, Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| pilcher wrote: |
| fuses and wiring is good. Fuel pump is brand new. Is the only thing left the relay? and if so does anyone have the part number for it? |
First yeah, check the ground connections. Note that there are 2 (two) relays; one behind the fuse box (relay one, as I call it) and another beneath the rear seat (this one has an in-line fuse beside it, which should be replaced if it is anything but new) this one is controlled directly by the ECU. To see if the problem is with the first relay (#1), bypass it temporarialy by doing the following:
disconnect the battery
disconnect the two red leads from the relay behind the fuse box
paperclip the two leads together
reattach the battery
At this point, the pump should run constantly. If so, the issue is with the relay in the dash. I just ordered two relays from CIP1, and they are SIGNIFICANTLY different from what is on the car—five terminals, but arranged entirely differently from those on the VW regulator—so if you find a one which matches, I'd like to hear about it.
Alternately, I'll pist pics of what I have and we'll see if someone has a work-around.
--Chory
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Current Fleet:
‘07 Saab 9-4 2L Turbo (GM era, US bild)
‘91 Honda Beat (JDM, mid-engine, KEI) |
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Chory
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2006
Posts: 1318
Location: Jefferson Westside, Eugene, Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Replacement relay:
Terminals numbered:
----87---
86 87 85
----30----
Shall I just omit the push-on plastic connector and wire direct to the apropriate terminals with spade-connectors?
Regarding "apropriate" terminals:
Bentley diagram shows three wires to the under dash relay
one gray - term. 85 to ECU
one blue & yellow - term. 86 to under-seat ECU relay
one black & red - term. 30/51 to fuse box
one empty terminal - term. 87 (is this where power runs out to the pump?)
I have:
One Gray - term. 86
(which runs to a plastic connector alongside)
One Blue & Yellow (faded to white) - term. 85
Two Red (one going to the fuse box [term 30/51], one toward the rear of the car[term. 87])
the relay I have also has a single unused terminal (paired at term. 87)...for a total of 5 terminals...with no ground.
What's up with that? Why are term 85 & 86 wires transposed? Where to does the red wire run from term 87, which Bentley shows as unused (or is that the wire which runs power to the pump? why is it not shown in the Bentley?)? I presume that term. 30 on the replacement is = to term 30/51 on the old one...right?
The new relay is plastic, should I ground it in some manner as the old one seemed to be ground at the body of the car? Or does the under-seat relay ground wire (brown) function to ground the entirety of the system?
_________________
Be kind…
Current Fleet:
‘07 Saab 9-4 2L Turbo (GM era, US bild)
‘91 Honda Beat (JDM, mid-engine, KEI) |
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Russ Wolfe
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Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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The one under the rear seat is not controlled by the ECU, it is the power FOR the ECU. And the relay shown is not the right one for the FI. It will probably work, but be careful that it gets wired right, and has the right current rating.
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Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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Chory
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2006
Posts: 1318
Location: Jefferson Westside, Eugene, Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
| The one under the rear seat is not controlled by the ECU, it is the power FOR the ECU. And the relay shown is not the right one for the FI. It will probably work, but be careful that it gets wired right, and has the right current rating. |
Thanks, Russ, for the clarification.
So now I am a little concerned.
The replacement is the only one I can find—have found multiple references to (old)Bosch # 0 332 003 021 (VW# 311 906 061) being replaced by new style Bosch # 0 332 019 150 (this from both 914 forums as well as Volvo forums)
HOWVER:
Old style is 12V 10A
new style; 12V 30A
All necessary terminals are present and numbered correctly tho their layout differs (altho term. 30/51 is replaced by term. 30).
Bosch website is of no use and has no reference to old style # or new—it would seem you cannot search by part #.
Sites hawking Bosch FI supplies listing new part with old part #:
http://www2.partstrain.com/partlisting/full/saab/9...tion+Relay
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/replacement_sm/volvo~fuel_pump_relay~replacement.html
http://store.autopartsliquidations.biz/0332019150.html
_________________
Be kind…
Current Fleet:
‘07 Saab 9-4 2L Turbo (GM era, US bild)
‘91 Honda Beat (JDM, mid-engine, KEI) |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Chory wrote: |
| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
| The one under the rear seat is not controlled by the ECU, it is the power FOR the ECU. And the relay shown is not the right one for the FI. It will probably work, but be careful that it gets wired right, and has the right current rating. |
Thanks, Russ, for the clarification.
So now I am a little concerned.
The replacement is the only one I can find—have found multiple references to (old)Bosch # 0 332 003 021 (VW# 311 906 061) being replaced by new style Bosch # 0 332 019 150 (this from both 914 forums as well as Volvo forums)
HOWVER:
Old style is 12V 10A
new style; 12V 30A
All necessary terminals are present and numbered correctly tho their layout differs (altho term. 30/51 is replaced by term. 30).
Bosch website is of no use and has no reference to old style # or new—it would seem you cannot search by part #.
Sites hawking Bosch FI supplies listing new part with old part #:
http://www2.partstrain.com/partlisting/full/saab/9...tion+Relay
http://www.autopartswarehouse.com/replacement_sm/volvo~fuel_pump_relay~replacement.html
http://store.autopartsliquidations.biz/0332019150.html |
This is one of my chief gripes with parts houses these days. They think that because some catalogue somewhere says a different part number will fit, it's gospel. You can only "condense" part numbers down so much. I can't tell you how many times this happens. Sometimes, these catalogue bloopers are out and out mistakes that get perpetuated and multiplied by dozens of distributors replicating the wrong information in their computer programs. And, "parts professionals" today know nothing about parts. If the computer says it fits, your car must be incorrect.
Get the right part, even if you have to get a used one. Unless, of course, you want to have it fail right off the bat, or every few months. 
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Chory
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2006
Posts: 1318
Location: Jefferson Westside, Eugene, Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Aaaaaaarrrrrgghhh!
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Be kind…
Current Fleet:
‘07 Saab 9-4 2L Turbo (GM era, US bild)
‘91 Honda Beat (JDM, mid-engine, KEI) |
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Russ Wolfe
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Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Chory wrote: |
| Aaaaaaarrrrrgghhh! |
$5.00 plus shipping gets you a known good relay.
_________________
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34021
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| Those look like high current foglamp relays. They certainly have the capacity (30A), so as long as the contact resistance and pull-in current draw are small (though I've never measured them for the FI relays), they should work for FI. |
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Chory
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2006
Posts: 1318
Location: Jefferson Westside, Eugene, Oregon, USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
| This is one of my chief gripes with parts houses these days. They think that because some catalogue somewhere says a different part number will fit, it's gospel. You can only "condense" part numbers down so much.<br>And, "parts professionals" today know nothing about parts. If the computer says it fits, your car must be incorrect. |
My gripe is with Bosch for not maintaining their database in a searchable format. How dificult would it be for the manufacturer to chime in on the topic? They made this stuff, they could at least verify wether there is a surrogate available or not (even just listing the part # accompanied by a bog fat NLA) as opposed to just eliminating all reference to it from their catalogue. One can look up the car on their site, find all accompanying pieces which are still under manufacture, but not search by Bosch part numbers—now that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.
| KTPhil wrote: |
| Those look like high current foglamp relays. They certainly have the capacity (30A), so as long as the contact resistance and pull-in current draw are small (though I've never measured them for the FI relays), they should work for FI. |
I've seen them called "headlight," "foglamp," "horn," and "Fuel Pump" relays. I think this is a consequence of what Tram is calling "condensing." Seeing as I now have two of them, I am going to put the thing in today and see what happens—worst case scenario, it short citcuits, blows out the used fuel pump, melts relay-plastic onto my foot, blows the fuse, and causes an in-dash fire. All of which I can handle. What I cannot handle is the fuel pump cutting out at 35mph again—it's embarrasing—tho the car is light in weight, I hate pushing it.
Will report back later.
| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
$5.00 plus shipping gets you a known good relay. |
Should the above occur, expect a PM from me.
What are we to do in another 30 years when all of these relays really are dead and NLA? Convert to Carbs?
_________________
Be kind…
Current Fleet:
‘07 Saab 9-4 2L Turbo (GM era, US bild)
‘91 Honda Beat (JDM, mid-engine, KEI) |
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Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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The original relay was not made by Bosch. It was made by SWF, IIRC, without looking at one.
VW used many different manufacturers to supply parts for their cars.
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Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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pilcher
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2006
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Allright. I have power to the pump and it is going, but I am not getting any fuel to the rest of the engine. Ive checked the wiring, I have hooked the fuel pump up directly to see if it was working, which the whirring sounds seem to mean. But I have no idea why fuel wouldnt be reaching the engine. |
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KTPhil
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34021
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Is it exiting the pump? If so, you may have a blockage in the line. |
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pilcher
Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2006
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Would a block in the line prevent all fuel from getting there? And if so how do i run it out? |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34021
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Well, check the pump itself first: attach a hose to the outlet and jumper it to run for a couple of seconds. If that works well, then start checking each segment to see where the blockage is. You might get by with a blast of compressed air once both ends are open, but more likely you will need to replace the section. |
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