PLEASE read buyer/seller dispute?

[perrib]

Ok, I need opinions. I sold a Vanogon thermostat housing. Buyer got it said bolt was broken off just like he did to his part.. Funny thing is buyer paid to have bolt removed instead of contacting me first. The part looked almost brand new.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Samba:

First email from buyer after sale:

Is there a way to post on Samba to recomend you as a seller.?

[email protected] wrote:
I took it to Fedex Sunday. Perri

My response:

In the forums there is a buyer seller feed back forum Thank you. I only try to sell parts for what they are if there worn I say so, If they are really nice I say so. I wish I had your Fedex account $6 overnight to Alaska. Be gentle to the 10 mm bolts you may have to heat the side of the cover and housing. Sometimes they break at the cover the threads are not siezed just the bolt to the cover. Use grease or antisieze on thee entire lenght of the bolts. Perri.

Buyers next email:

I got the package today, and you did not tell me the inside long bolt on the bottom side was broken off at the head. I just paid 55.00 to get the bolt extracted from the hole and the unpper housing. Is is the same bolt I broke off on another part I took off a bad motor and bought yours to replace mine. I was back to square one with your part. So 4th of July I am spending putting the part on my engine.

[email protected] wrote:
In the forums there is a buyer seller feed back forum Thank you. I only try to sell parts for what they are if there worn I say so, If they are really nice I say so. I wish I had your Fedex account $6 overnight to Alaska. Be gentle to the 10 mm bolts you may have to heat the side of the cover and housing. Sometimes they break at the cover the threads are not siezed just the bolt to the cover. Use grease or antisieze on thee entire lenght of the bolts. Perri.

My next email:

Ok, now I am really confused. The housing assembly I sent you had no broken bolts, The thermostat housing had no corrosion where the hoses attach, it was like it had 20k miles of use. The cover and flange were attached with unbroken bolts. Did you tell me about the problem you had with the first one? You could of sent your part with the broken bolt to me and I would of removed the bolt for $10-$30. Off the vehicle it is easy to fix. After your bad experience with yours why didn't you ask me to dissasemble the thermostat housing and clean all the threads I would of done it for you. If you did not like the part you should of contacted me before doing anything. The first thing a reasonable person who buys someting that is not to thier satisfaction is to contact the seller first, not have it repaired and then contact the seller.to complain. You could of asked me to fix it or for a refund. That would of been the smartest, best, fairest and cheapest thing to do. Did you? No you did not.You broke the bolt and then made the wrong choices. Then you complain? Now its time for us to clean up the mess you created. If you send me back my parts all of them including clips, shields etc, I can refund you your money, but then you lose twice. You can send me your old one if it is the same shape as my old one with just the one bolt broken off cleanly and not butchered by someone's attempt to remove it, I can refund you thirty dollars. This offer is good only until July 12,2007. Since you did not fix your original part and ask me for a refund you chose to fix my part that you broke I think and the forum should agree that your part was extremely corroded or the broken bolt was butchered beyond reasonable repair by a failed attempt to remove the bolt you broke off. What do you think

An e mail to a different buyer:

Stephane:
I do accept PayPal. The handle is yours as long as you understand its condition, It has the crack in the tumbler housing that happens when a drunk friend trying to force it to open a locked door. The handle hangs below horizontal on the van and feels sloppy when you open the door. Perri

I would like some input from the buyer of the t-stat housing.

I feel since the buyer did not contact me about his problem and ask for a refund, but instead chose to pay to have my part fixed, instead of having his part fixed something is not right with his response. Perrib

[melodie]

Greetings to the group:

I am writing in response to the request for opinions regarding the Vanagan Thermostat Housing that was purchased by my husband.

I am no expert on cars but there are accuracy errors in the posting that Perri made and I would like to clarify the issue so that the group can be completely informed of what happened.

First, it is stated that the car part "looked almost brand new". No, it did not. It looked like what it was; a used car part.

Second, in the traffic that the group has been copied on, Perri states that the part sold to us was "like it had 20K miles of use." Not once, in any of the email traffic between Perri and my husband, did Perri state the mileage on the part.

In the first contact of June 19th, Perri told my husband that he had "new $100, one very clean $50, and one normal use $40". My husband chose the $50.


I received the box at my job. I called my husband to say the part was here. Before he saw the part, he sent the email to Perri asking where he could post a positive response.

He then came to my job and opened the box in front of me. He examined the part and immediately noted that the bolt was broken.

I know some folks may say that I am saying this because the buyer was my husband, but I am not in the habit of lying. The part was not whole when it arrived, having a broken bolt.

If it was a perfect world, then Perri is right. Chris should have contacted him, Perri should have offered the remedies that he offers below and things would be rainbows and roses. But it is not a perfect world.

In Perri's email, he brings up things that do not have any bearing on the broken part we were sent.

It is entirely possible that Perri did not realize that the bolt was broken when he sent it off. That is a fair statement. The group needs to understand, and Perri does not mention this, is that PERRI had to take the part off an engine to sell/send it to my husband. How do I know this? Because Perri sent us a picture with the part still attached to the engine, so it is unfair and unjust of Perri to say that Chris is the one who broke the part.

Nowhere, in the email traffic that I saw, did Perri say to Chris that if the part is not what he needs, if he is not satisfied with it, if it is broken, that he can contact Perri and get a full refund (or a refund of any type for that matter). Typically, that is not the type of offer that is made when buying used parts. I could be wrong but it seems like it was brought up to muddy the waters, not to clear them up.

The group should also understand that we are trying to get a vehicle running and quickly. We received a part that was broken. It is not reasonable to email the seller (especially during a holiday), expect a quick response, and do everything that Perri states he would have offered had that happened. Frankly, if everything went the way the Perri states, it still would take a couple of weeks of sending things down and back. By the time that is done, the shipping costs alone would equal what it cost to get someone here to get the bolt out. In addition, we received a part that was not what we paid for. How could we know that Perri would fix the part and send it back whole?

The offer that Perri makes to refund $30 if Chris sends his original part down to him is nice, but not really pertinent, as Chris had already explained to Perri that the reason he needed Perri's part was because the part Chris had was already damaged and not repairable. Therefore, not a fair offer.

I am not sure what his statement "Since you did not fix your original part" --if Chris could have fixed the original this "discussion" would not be occurring-- "and ask me for a refund" --Right, you didn't state anywhere that a refund could be given--"you chose to fix my part that you broke"--as stated previously, the part arrived broken and to fix it was the only reasonable option available--"I think and the forum should agree that your part was extremely corroded"--when did that even come up and why would it matter? The condition of the first part has no bearing on this--"or the broken bolt was butchered beyond reasonable repair by a failed attempt to remove the bolt you broke off." Again, what is the point of this statement? Obviously, it is an attempt to muddy the waters. Again, I state--If the original part (not the one bought from Perri) was in a usable condition, Chris would not have contacted Perri to buy the part that is now causing all this ruckus.

I am also confused by the statement Perri makes "Now it is time for us to clean up the mess you created". Who is US and what mess? Chris sent a note to state that the part arrived with a broken bolt, that he had to pay to get someone to get that bolt out and that he wasn't happy. He has the right to do that. I don't see, anywhere in the email that Chris sent and Perri copied that Chris is asking for any remedy, that he is being nasty, or anything else. He is stating facts as he has the right to do.

Perri lists a lot of things that Chris should have done along with some accusations. What about what Perri could have done?

The part arrives broken--through no one's fault. Stuff happens. Chris gets the broken bolt taken care of and contacts Perri to let him know of the problem and that it has been fixed. Clearly, as anyone would be, he is not happy about it.

Perri responds with an offer of some money back...say $25, but not accepting any fault for the broken bolt. Both parties come away with something and the problem is solved. This way, Perri gets rid of the part, doesn't have to take it back, and KEEPS A CUSTOMER. Chris gets the part to fix his vehicle, finds a seller who is interested in keeping a customer happy and gets a little something to help offset the cost to fix the problem. It might have even worked out well if Perri offered to find another part or something else that Chris needed. It is not necessary that cash had to change hands.

Should that have happened, instead of what brings us here, Chris would most likely leave a good response. Perri, at that point, could chose whether or not he wanted to do business with Chris the next time.

In looking at the final items that Perri includes, the email he copied the group on doesn't really prove or disprove anything. I am not sure why he included it as it doesn't have a date and could very well have been sent after the early email traffic today.

As stated above, if it was a perfect world, yes, Chris should have contacted him before fixing the broken bolt. I don't believe that by choosing to have the part fixed locally makes the statement "but instead chose to pay to have my part fixed, instead of having his part fixed, something is not right with his response." Chris had already stated to Perri that his original part was not fixable so what is the problem?

Thank you for your time.

[perrib]

Thank you for responding. You are correct there are some inacuracies. Some of them are my fault.
When I wrote this I did not reread your original emails. So when I wrote this:

Since you did not fix your original part and ask me for a refund you chose to fix my part that you broke I think and the forum should agree that your part was extremely corroded or the broken bolt was butchered beyond reasonable repair by a failed attempt to remove the bolt you broke off. What do you think

This statement was totally wrong. You did say your part was bad and you never asked for a refund.
I should of waited a day and reread all the emails and my response. I am sorry.

You wrote this:

First, it is stated that the car part "looked almost brand new". No, it did not. It looked like what it was; a used car part.

Second, in the traffic that the group has been copied on, Perri states that the part sold to us was "like it had 20K miles of use." Not once, in any of the email traffic between Perri and my husband, did Perri state the mileage on the part.

In the first contact of June 19th, Perri told my husband that he had "new $100, one very clean $50, and one normal use $40". My husband chose the $50.

My response:

Ok everyone has an different opinion about looks new , very clean part, In the ad I said it was very clean. It was. Where the hoses attached to it were extremely corrosion free, the wire guide and hose shield were still there. I said it looked like it had 20k miles on it not that it had 20k miles on it. Maybe I should of said it was one of the cleanest used 25 year old thermostat housings that I had seen in twenty six years of working on Vws. Once again I'm sorry.

Next you wrote:

It is entirely possible that Perri did not realize that the bolt was broken when he sent it off. That is a fair statement. The group needs to understand, and Perri does not mention this, is that PERRI had to take the part off an engine to sell/send it to my husband. How do I know this? Because Perri sent us a picture with the part still attached to the engine, so it is unfair and unjust of Perri to say that Chris is the one who broke the part.

My response:

That is fair to say. We are human so that could be possible. But after 26 years of working on VWs It is highly unlikely I would of done that. I prefer to have satisfied buyers. Off the engine I can take a bolt out of one of these in 5-15 minutes, so why would I ship it in that condition. So I can have an unhappy buyer? That makes no sense to me. When I sell another on I will take it apart before shipping. In hindsight I should have.

You wrote:

The offer that Perri makes to refund $30 if Chris sends his original part down to him is nice, but not really pertinent, as Chris had already explained to Perri that the reason he needed Perri's part was because the part Chris had was already damaged and not repairable. Therefore, not a fair offer.

And you wrote:

I am not sure what his statement "Since you did not fix your original part" --if Chris could have fixed the original this "discussion" would not be occurring-- "and ask me for a refund" --Right, you didn't state anywhere that a refund could be given--"you chose to fix my part that you broke"--as stated previously, the part arrived broken and to fix it was the only reasonable option available--"I think and the forum should agree that your part was extremely corroded"--when did that even come up and why would it matter? The condition of the first part has no bearing on this--"or the broken bolt was butchered beyond reasonable repair by a failed attempt to remove the bolt you broke off." Again, what is the point of this statement? Obviously, it is an attempt to muddy the waters. Again, I state--If the original part (not the one bought from Perri) was in a usable condition, Chris would not have contacted Perri to buy the part that is now causing all this ruckus.


My response:

I should have reread all the emails first before sending a response. He did say it was no good. I'm sorry.

You wrote:

Nowhere, in the email traffic that I saw, did Perri say to Chris that if the part is not what he needs, if he is not satisfied with it, if it is broken, that he can contact Perri and get a full refund (or a refund of any type for that matter). Typically, that is not the type of offer that is made when buying used parts. I could be wrong but it seems like it was brought up to muddy the waters, not to clear them up.

My response:

Did you bother to ask? When you buy someting at a store, the store does not always tell you they offer refunds and warranties. But if you ask you find out. You never asked.


Ok so far our differences of opinion have been minor. This one is not. You wrote:

The group should also understand that we are trying to get a vehicle running and quickly. We received a part that was broken. It is not reasonable to email the seller (especially during a holiday), expect a quick response, and do everything that Perri states he would have offered had that happened. Frankly, if everything went the way the Perri states, it still would take a couple of weeks of sending things down and back. By the time that is done, the shipping costs alone would equal what it cost to get someone here to get the bolt out. In addition, we received a part that was not what we paid for. How could we know that Perri would fix the part and send it back whole?

My response:

Why is it not reasonable to expect me to respond during the 4th of July. The owner of The Samba emailed me back at 8am today after I emailed him I could not get this email to post on The Samba last night at midnight.



But here is the not so minor point. It only cost you $6.00 to have the housing Fedexed through your job overnight to Alaska from Phoenix for $6.00. I will assume that is what it cost to send the Fedex shipping tag to me. So for $12.00 (which I would of credited back to your PayPal) and 3-4 days the problem could of been resolved. Your email states it would take two weeks and more than $44.00 to do that. It seems this statement is false. How many of the others are misinformation ?

For this part of your statement:

"How could we know that Perri would fix the part and send it back whole?" You never asked. Keeping your money and part seems to insinuate I engage in theft and fraud. None of my other Buyers think so. Revist your previous statement I quoted if you want to talk about character. Ask why would I want to do that? Is that how ones makes a customer happy?

You wrote:

Perri responds with an offer of some money back...say $25, but not accepting any fault for the broken bolt. Both parties come away with something and the problem is solved. This way, Perri gets rid of the part, doesn't have to take it back, and KEEPS A CUSTOMER. Chris gets the part to fix his vehicle, finds a seller who is interested in keeping a customer happy and gets a little something to help offset the cost to fix the problem. It might have even worked out well if Perri offered to find another part or something else that Chris needed. It is not necessary that cash had to change hands.

My response:

You made the choice to invest more money in a part that did not meet your satisfaction before asking me what could be done about it. This does sound like someone who thought is was still useable at the sale price.
I was hesitant to make ammends since the broken bolt issue could be misinformation just as your misinformation about shipping back the housing back to me to remove the broken bolt you said it had and send it back to you. But email me your bill from that day indicating removal of broken bolt from the t-sat housing and I will refund your PayAPal account $20.00. This offer ends July 12,2007

[melodie]

Hi Perri,

Thanks for your response but again we have a problem because now you are calling me dishonest by saying I have given you misinformation regarding what it would cost to ship the part back to you and then have you ship it back to my husband.

If we are willing to pay the cost of Fed X to get the part to us quickly because we need it, what difference does it make to you? The shipping of the Fed X has nothing to do with the fact that the part you sent to my husband was not the part that he believed he was buying.

In the response I sent to the group, I only noted the things that I know to be true and factual. I made, and make, no assumptions about other things on the part that was sent to us because I DONT KNOW.

You noted my comment regarding the refund. Most stores are required to place their refund policies in plain sight or to inform the customer of said policies. While some may not, it is good customer service to do so.

If you are someone who offers a refund or an exchange, for a private sale, then you are indeed a very rare bird. Most private sales don't offer that so why would it be reasonable for ANYONE purchasing a used car part from you, to ask about a refund policy? If you make it a habit to offer that, why not simply explain it to people instead of saying we could have asked. Yeah we could have, but you could have said some thing as well, so that is not a fair statement to make.

I still stand by my statement that it is not reasonable to expect a quick response over the holiday. That fact that you were available is wonderful but it is what you say at this point. You have accused my husband, and now myself, of being dishonest. How do we know that you would have responded quickly to the situation? You say we lie but by the same turn, we could say the same of you. Again, it becomes a he said/she said situation and no one wins.

As to the shipping cost, what does that have to do with anything? What I chose to pay for shipping has NOTHING to do with the fact that the part that was sent to us had a broken bolt.

Since I haven't actually seen the shipping bill (I do know what it cost to send the payment to you, but won't get the bill for the actual part being sent to us for a few more weeks) how could you take the $ amounts to be actual?

I could make the same statement to you--was the $6 shipping fee you quoted in the price the ACTUAL price or an estimated price? If we had chosen to get the package by normal mail, when it got here, would the price have been $5.82 or $6.99 or what? If it was less than the $6 you charged, would you have refunded the difference or sent a bill for the balance if it was more than $6?

You spoke in general terms but expect me to respond in exacts. If I don't you, in essence by how you respond, call me a liar. Just as a point of fact, my husband didn't use paypal.

Perri, you are the one who started this slinging match by sending your first email to the group and making statements about how my husband broke the bolt. I do know my character and do not appreciate your last few responses to my comments. There is no benefit for me to lie to you or about you. MY character doesn't allow me to do that. I was raised better than that.

Your character clearly shows through with the comments you have made.

It is sad that you say that you stand by your products but then spend so much time trying to make you seem in the right and Chris in the wrong.

Why can't it just be exactly as I stated--the bolt got broken through no ones fault--at this point, who cares how it happened? If you were interested in keeping the customer happy, your response should have been more along the lines of "Chris, I am sorry that the bolt was broken. When I took the part off the engine, I examined it and did not see a broken bolt. Since you had to go to the inconvenience of getting the bolt removed, I would be happy to offer you a $20 rebate toward your next purchase or 10% off your next purchase" or something along those lines (and don't come back and say I am being wishy washy because I said $25 in the previous response and am now saying $20--THESE ARE ONLY EXAMPLES!

While it is nice of you to offer to reimburse for some of the removal expense, it is the way you are going about it. On one hand, you call us liars and then you say well if you do this, you get this.

Remember, you are the one who brought this to the group. You are the one who is making statements about honesty and theft. I read the email that Chris sent to you, the one you listed on the site. I don't see anywhere in it where he demanded any type of refund from you. He told you of the problem and what he did to solve it.

Your response has not been reasonable given the situation. I know that Chris has sent you a subsequent email that was a bit cranky but really, when you accuse people of lying, without anything to back it up, what did you expect?

It is a shame that this has happened all around. It is a shame that, instead of working with Chris, you chose to do this.

Thank you for your, and the groups, time.

Melodie

[perrib]

Ok, Like the middle east, we are spinning out of control. I'm sorry
I thought if we went a day, We would be more objective. I feel we need to be more diplomatic. Lets regroup. I apoligize for nit picking. His email was the nicest of all of ours. Instead of getting emotional I should of emailed Chris back: Chris How about twenty dollars back. Melodie is right its a dumb thing to argue over. Perrib

[melodie]

Thanks again for the response Perri.

If you offer is serious of $20, let us know via Chris's email and we will send the address to mail the refund to.

Melodie

[perrib]

Ok, I looked at this mountain made out of an ant hill. Melodie and Chris will be getting $20.00. I enlarged the picture I sent them, resolution was so low no detail could be seen. I should of thought of this first. Perri

[perrib]

I thought this was over and I was out. Damn VWs keep dragging me back. It 8:30 pm Its supposed to rain on an open trailer full of VW parts. We have 1500 sq ft building full of pallet racking full of VW parts new and used. You may ask what does this have to do with a thermostat housing. I was suppose to mail them a very nice t-stat housing. well I just found it in the trailer they got the wrong one. No wonder we were going at each other like pitbulls. They got the worst one I had, I would only use it if I had to. It had a bolt broken off in it. No wonder we both thought the other one was crazy. It never occured to me to see if the wrong one got shipped. It is going to be hard to get my foot out of my mouth.