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Tiico? Vanaru? GEX Rebuild? Which one is best for us?
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weatherbill
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just sold a Tiico conversion in a 91 carat.

I've owned 5 other vanagons and the Tiico has a very different feel. It defintely has better power than the wasser boxer.

Now I'm gonna take that moola I have from the 91 I sold and start upgrading my 89 wolfsburg.

I ordred a new transmission from tiico. The guy Peter there said 5 new tranies came in and they are the 3.74 ring & pinion type, which he says, gives me an extra 300 rpm of room, so going 70 mph, I would do 3700 rpm instead of 4000 rpm, so i am way interested to see if that is trueely the case with these.

The only thing is, I have a lame boston bob engine in from an install a couple owners ago did. I swear the boston bob engine has to be one of those 85 hp jobs. It's worse than any vanagon I ever driven, but maybe it's been the gears all along, so I'm gonna see with the trannie swap what the difference is.

if I get a conversion, i think I'll go with the Tiico, unless someone can convince me to go with the subaru.......
doing a quick cost comparison, the tiico engine is going for like $4500.
Not sure about the subaru 2.2 130hp??? But the time to install was almost twice that of a tiico conversion, so I'm am leaning strongly to with the tiico conversion....some folks have had vibration problems with these, but I hear if it's done right, no problems. i think an experienced tiico installer is a must for certainty.
I have to admit, the subaru looks really nice in the hatch and looks so ballanced, more than the Tiico.
Hmmm, can anyone convince me of the subaru. Am I off in my price comparison with the tiico???
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vwlovr
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i could see the subi 2.2 doing 130 at the crank, but not at the wheels. bostig dyno'd there 2.0 zetec against the 2.2 subi, they got like 5hp more, nothing shocking. they were both in the 110 ballpark. if i did subi, i'd definitely do the 2.5 or better. but 2.2 vs Zetec and i'd do (rather did) the later. seems to me it would be much easier to find a low mileage zetec over a subi 2.2.

to me the tiico just seemed a bit dated, and was the least impressive alternative. i guess it's a cheaper alternative, but i'd feel better about finding subi or zetec parts if i got stranded somewhere. if you're doing DIY, the zetec core kit looks worthwhile. no wire harness splicing to deal with. just source a zetec motor and you're in business. like you i'm not impressed with the tiico layout. the zetec is nice and clean with plenty of room on each side of the motor. plus the motor is just clean, not of lot of crap attached to it.

i got the full turnkey kit, but i seriously doubt a turnkey tiico would be that much easier to install. the only real extra work was running the breakout box to the dash, running a new throttle cable, and wiring up like 7 wires to the vw harness. the rest of the work was stuff you'd have to do with any motor you'd have to install including the wbx.
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SVYOLO
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only problem with any WBXer is the rest of the engine compartment is still 20 years old. The VW dealers locally are quoting 7k to install a WBXer, with an open quote. A new exhaust (1100 internet price) and new cooing lines (over 1000 bucks, plus installation at the dealer) drive the VW option, done by anyone, over the top price-wise.
I take apart VW wiring during Subie conversions. 1 out of 15 or 20 VW wires is toast, end to end. I wonder how many WBX ers have been trashed by a bad wire to an injector or MAF.
The 2.2 Subaru and Zetec are similar for power and torque. A stock WBXer has decent torque if running right, but only from 2-4K rpm. Newer engines are vastly more flexible, but the 2.2 and Zetec actually only have 10-15% more peak torque than a decent WBXer, but their torque curve is much broader/longer, making them easier to drive. The GW motors have more torque, but again only in a narrow range, making you a slave to the shifter.
A 2.5 Subaru, at 165 hp, is bigger upgrade over a 2.2 or Zetec, than the 2.2 or Zetec are over a WBXer. The extra 30 ponies make the van drive like a regular car. The small additional cost of the engine in the beginning make it difficult to justify using a 2.2 anymore, especially since you will spend a bunch to refresh the 2.2, whereas a late model 2.5 you will just swap the timing belt and go.
For Do-it-yourselfers, their are enough proven parts and conversion pieces to make a Subaru a fairly easy, no welding, no wire splicing swap. A couple of vendors, including us, convert wiring harnesses so their is zero wriing splicing. You just plug it into the van.
We have been investigating other engines for quite a while and currently have a 2.4 liter 177 hp GM Ecotec installed in a van. The ECOTEC, ZETEC, and 1.8T are all within a 1/2 inch of each other in every dimension. They fit OK in Syncros, but I am not sure I like any of them in a 2wd, unless you raise the deck lid 3 inches. I think Westy owners will not like the option. Lowering the engine and shortening the oil pan to fit under the lid still results in too little ground clearance. As a comparison, a shortened Subaru oil pan is 4 inches deep, the same as a stock ECOTEC or ZETEC. Shortening them much further is risky, IMHO.
If I am going to go to the trouble of putting a different engine in, I really want at least 160 hp. I like the 1.8t's, and have seen one of Stephans conversions and it was really nice. Same problem as the ECOTEC on 2wd's, however, but at least you get decent power and economy.

John
Eastcoastvanagon.net
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ChesterKV
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SVYOLO wrote:
The only problem with any WBXer is the rest of the engine compartment is still 20 years old. The VW dealers locally are quoting 7k to install a WBXer, with an open quote. A new exhaust (1100 internet price) and new cooing lines (over 1000 bucks, plus installation at the dealer) drive the VW option, done by anyone, over the top price-wise.
I take apart VW wiring during Subie conversions. 1 out of 15 or 20 VW wires is toast, end to end. I wonder how many WBX ers have been trashed by a bad wire to an injector or MAF.
The 2.2 Subaru and Zetec are similar for power and torque. A stock WBXer has decent torque if running right, but only from 2-4K rpm. Newer engines are vastly more flexible, but the 2.2 and Zetec actually only have 10-15% more peak torque than a decent WBXer, but their torque curve is much broader/longer, making them easier to drive. The GW motors have more torque, but again only in a narrow range, making you a slave to the shifter.
A 2.5 Subaru, at 165 hp, is bigger upgrade over a 2.2 or Zetec, than the 2.2 or Zetec are over a WBXer. The extra 30 ponies make the van drive like a regular car. The small additional cost of the engine in the beginning make it difficult to justify using a 2.2 anymore, especially since you will spend a bunch to refresh the 2.2, whereas a late model 2.5 you will just swap the timing belt and go.
For Do-it-yourselfers, their are enough proven parts and conversion pieces to make a Subaru a fairly easy, no welding, no wire splicing swap. A couple of vendors, including us, convert wiring harnesses so their is zero wriing splicing. You just plug it into the van.
We have been investigating other engines for quite a while and currently have a 2.4 liter 177 hp GM Ecotec installed in a van. The ECOTEC, ZETEC, and 1.8T are all within a 1/2 inch of each other in every dimension. They fit OK in Syncros, but I am not sure I like any of them in a 2wd, unless you raise the deck lid 3 inches. I think Westy owners will not like the option. Lowering the engine and shortening the oil pan to fit under the lid still results in too little ground clearance. As a comparison, a shortened Subaru oil pan is 4 inches deep, the same as a stock ECOTEC or ZETEC. Shortening them much further is risky, IMHO.
If I am going to go to the trouble of putting a different engine in, I really want at least 160 hp. I like the 1.8t's, and have seen one of Stephans conversions and it was really nice. Same problem as the ECOTEC on 2wd's, however, but at least you get decent power and economy.

John
Eastcoastvanagon.net


Regarding John's comments I will say this in my humble opinion; If you're going to have a Subaru engine installed by a shop then by all means have the 2.5 or even 3.3 inserted. It doesn't make sense to spend thousands of dollars having your van converted and ALMOST have it perfect. If you're doing it yourself and on a tight budget (such as myself) then the 2.2 still has the edge over the 2.5 in terms of initial costs. However, if you're the owner of a 5,000 + lbs Westfalia then forget the 2.2; the 2.5 is PERFECT for the heavier versions of the Vanagon/Transporter. It's also OBDII which means a computer tells you when the engine has a cold. Very easy to diagnose problems.
My van usually weighs between 3,200 to 4,500 pounds depending upon the jobs I'm doing. The 2.2 GoWesty I had (the 105 horsepower version from two years ago) in there had good enough power to merge onto the freeway at 65 m.p.h. no problem. With the Subaru 2.2 it'll be even better in performance. How much exactly ? I dunno Think I won't know until I do performance evalutions such as 0-60 times, freeway merging experiences, powering out of a high speed drift; the usual stuff.


If you're not going to do the work and future maintenance will be handled by your mechanic - 2.5 OBDII is the best option regardless of the type of van you have


If you're willing to spend countless hours doing the work and future upkeep yourself, you're somewhat low on funds, AND you have one of the lighter vans- 2.2 is cheap and great. 2.5 is nice but not necessary in this scenario


If you want to go over the top for no justifiable reason other than you are a dude and need to prove your "dudeness" then go 3.3 SVX - That will be my next conversion..........in a track van..............God help me.......



Oops, I almost forgot. If you live in California and want to be legal and all, then the 2.2 is your only Subaru option. d'oh!
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targis58
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:36 am    Post subject: tiico in CA Reply with quote

If you have tiico conversion done on your van and live in Ca., how do you deal with DMV matters?
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vwlovr
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

freakness wrote:
If you want to go over the top for no justifiable reason other than you are a dude and need to prove your "dudeness" then go 3.3 SVX - That will be my next conversion..........in a track van..............God help me.......

Oops, I almost forgot. If you live in California and want to be legal and all, then the 2.2 is your only Subaru option. d'oh!


over the top proven dudeness is 520hp twin turbo porsche powered vanagon made to look like a split window =)


Link


as for CA, got any friends in NV, or OR? the bostig guys are working on CA approval, but who knows how long that will take. i'm moving out of the republic of CA so i didn't worry about it.
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gears
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While only the 2.2 has the CARB exemption, the other Subie engine models can also be passed by individual referees in CA. But everything has to be spot-on, with no engine codes.
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skaaudivw
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i will be going the Zetec route also. I can find a good low mileage motor for about $400.00. under 25k and the kit is $3800.00. Tons of good motors out there and easy to work on and parts are cheap. Solid motor too. I found one locally with 7k on it for $500.00 that I'm going to grab hopefully this weekend.
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woundedknee
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, although we change our minds with each post, it looks like we are going to go with the Subie 2.5 conversion. We are not doing the install ourselves, so we hope that this will help avoid any glitches as our mechanic is a master vw mechanic-for what that's worth. He is looking forward to the work since he hasn't done one yet.
So now we are faced with deciding whether or not to upgrade our trannie. If money were no issue I'd love to ditch the automatic and convert to a 5 speed...
Here is what Hans at vanaru has to say about that:
If your transmission works perfectly then you could chance it. Most
customers have installed a rebuilt at the time of conversion, probably 80%.
It's a good idea if it's the original transmission, since it will probably
fail at some point anyway especially with the new situation of more power
transmitted through it. The only consideration with doing it now vs. later
is that the transmission housing needs a small machining operation, so if
you swapped it out later your van would have to be out of commission until
the transmission was rebuilt and reinstalled.

I'm leaning toward the wait and see what happens & deal with it then approach
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RichBenn
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwlovr wrote:
i could see the subi 2.2 doing 130 at the crank, but not at the wheels. bostig dyno'd there 2.0 zetec against the 2.2 subi, they got like 5hp more, nothing shocking. they were both in the 110 ballpark. if i did subi, i'd definitely do the 2.5 or better. but 2.2 vs Zetec and i'd do (rather did) the later. seems to me it would be much easier to find a low mileage zetec over a subi 2.2.


It's not the horsepower that's important for these heavy vans, it's the torque and it's curve. The 2.2L subaru delivers 137 to 140 ft-lbs at the flywheel, vs. 130 ft-lbs for the zetec. Both are pretty flat flat from 2000 to 4000 RPM, which is what you want for the vanagon. You are right about the mileage -- 2.2L's with low mileage are becoming more scarce, but they are noted for getting up to 300K miles before a rebuild - that's diesel territory!
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vwlovr
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RichBenn wrote:

It's not the horsepower that's important for these heavy vans, it's the torque and it's curve. The 2.2L subaru delivers 137 to 140 ft-lbs at the flywheel, vs. 130 ft-lbs for the zetec. Both are pretty flat flat from 2000 to 4000 RPM, which is what you want for the vanagon. You are right about the mileage -- 2.2L's with low mileage are becoming more scarce, but they are noted for getting up to 300K miles before a rebuild - that's diesel territory!


i totally agree, torque is king. the zetec and 2.2 subi have very similar torque curves and the charts i've seen show the subi's curve dropping off a little earlier then the zetec. all charts i've seen show the zetec on top, even if only by a few ft/bs. so like i said, i think they are similar motors. "rated"
numbers don't mean shite to me. i think that's the big benefit of the zetec conversion. the bostig guys spent the time to totally tune the ECU for their intake and exhaust, which no doubt is going to produce better numbers than a stock zetec setup. i don't just want something that works, i want something that's dialed.

just because a subi can go 300k doesn't mean i want one with 160k miles on it. i have a ea82 powered subi, it has 200k miles on it and still runs, but it consumes oil like crazy. i mean look at freakness's project, he paid like $400 for a subi car to pull the motor out of that had like 180k, that he has done a considerable amount of work on because it's an old motor, with 180k miles on it. where skaaudivw found a zetec with under 7k for $500. i'd rather have the first and last 150k of zetec than the last 120k of a 180k subi. i know it's mostly in my mind, but i like that new car smell in my engine bay.

i liked the zetec option because i knew if it didn't perform as well as i wanted it to, i could drop the cash and drop in a supercharger, reflash my programmable ECU and be on my way. given the price of fuel in ca/hawaii economy was more of a factor or me. in the end, i'm very pleased with the motor's performance. it pulls harder than i expected, on hills my tired ea82 loyale wagon needs 1st for the vanagon happily pulls in 2nd. to quote freakness, if i did the SC it would be more out of dudeness then need Smile

anywho, to each his own for sure. being a vanagon owner i have a tendency to do things out of the norm. thinking outside the boxer if you will Smile
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skaaudivw
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwlovr how long did your Zetec install take. my guess the hardest part is taking out the WBX and related items.
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vwlovr
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skaaudivw wrote:
vwlovr how long did your Zetec install take. my guess the hardest part is taking out the WBX and related items.


it took about three weeks, but i did the turnkey. nothing was really hard about it. time consuming bits were just fixing existing issues and waiting for various non-zetec related parts. i also painted my engine bay so that took some time to clean, prep, and paint. actually installing the zetec was easy.

it took me like half a day to pull the wbx, but i didn't pull the trans at the same time which i should have - that would have made it a little easier. after pulling the motor only the engine wiring harness was a pain to remove, but still that was like less than an hours work. if you're going to trash it, it could be done in like 10 mins.

given no issues on your van, the turnkey could easily be installed in under a week or less. i just took my time because i wanted it to be super sano (read, a lot of zip tying), and i tried to fix as many things that were worn. looking at the motor, i don't think converting a salvaged motor would be that hard with the core kit. if you're in a hurry i'm sure you could get it done pretty fast.
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ChesterKV
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vwlovr wrote:


i mean look at freakness's project, he paid like $400 for a subi car to pull the motor out of that had like 180k, that he has done a considerable amount of work on because it's an old motor, with 180k miles on it.


I agree actually but it's important to understand my outlook on this process. For $ 400.00 I bought my first "project". I got the wiring harness with ECU, a/c compressor, power steering pump, coilpack, and a high-mileage engine that is still running at full compression (190 p.s.i. average). I actually consider the motor the "bonus". Just buying a wiring harness on it's own pre-modified can run $ 250.00 easy. If this motor lasts 10,000 miles or 50,000 miles it makes no difference to me; I'm taking a crash course in Subaru/Vanagon conversions so this engine is the guinea pig. All of the required maintenance from fixing a leaking oil pump to installing a new timing belt are teaching me about the EJ22 as a system and to a certain extent the EJ25 and EJ33 (SVX) motors.

For my next conversion in another van I'll try out the SVX 3.3. for no other reason than why not? However, for my next 2.2 conversion, IF I do one, I'll happily and preferably install a rebuilt engine with a year warranty and expect 150,000 or more miles from it. The amount of time saved in installing a rebuilt motor will be worth it to me since I kinda know what I'm doing now.........kinda



.
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vwlovr
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey freakness, no worries, i totally understand. like i said, to each his own for sure. if had time i would have consider and equally challenging and economical (or over the top dudeness) conversion as well. your conversion thread as been a good read, i enjoy any motor conversions really.

i liked the zetec because it just looks like a newer motor, it's so clean with no excess hoses running everywhere. the inline orientation provides tons room to reach into the engine bay, and the sparkplugs on top will be very nice when the time comes around. stainless exhaust and cradle are top notch and look really nice in the van, and i know they will last me a long time.
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RichBenn
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a major factor is whether one is doing their own work or not. For me, I got a donor car for $100 (well, plus trailer to tow). I yanked the harness and the entire top end. Since it had 200K miles, and upon examination, would have required some rebuild work, I've elected to get a JDM engine. Either the JDM or rebuilding the existing engine will cost me around $650. Either way I will have a relatively new engine.
The JDM is alot less work, however, and they (Japanese Domestic Market engines) typically have less than 40K miles.

The support system for Subaru engine DIY installs is great! Lot's of diagrams, user help, parts vendors, etc. Now if I had to pay for all the labor, it'd be ALOT! Way more than the $2K+ range I'll be in. Options when you are spending in the neighborhood of $7K for turnkey are different than DIY and I would certainly consider them. Or maybe I'd just buy a rebuilt vanagon engine.
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weatherbill
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanx for your replies!

Seems to me the subi 2.5 would be the way to go, since I do like more power. The only things is, would'nt it get less gas milage than the Subi 2.2 ??

I think I'm gonna spend the extra cash and have someone else do the work becasue I don't know what I'm doing.

The Zetec...I'll have to look that one up....what do they come out of???

Also looked into getting a new subi 2.2 from Oreilly's auto parts.
They had the non turbo 2.2, the EJ22E 16 valve
I take it, there are different kinds of EJ22's out there. What's the "E" for?
Someone also told me that the engines are different for an automatic and manual tranie on the EJ22
can anyone clarify these things? What do i need for my vanagon with manual tranie??? or does it make a difference???
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weatherbill
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-391056499...;plindex=0

now this is some power!
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

weatherbill wrote:
Thanx for your replies!

Seems to me the subi 2.5 would be the way to go, since I do like more power. The only things is, would'nt it get less gas milage than the Subi 2.2 ??

I think I'm gonna spend the extra cash and have someone else do the work becasue I don't know what I'm doing.

The Zetec...I'll have to look that one up....what do they come out of???

Also looked into getting a new subi 2.2 from Oreilly's auto parts.
They had the non turbo 2.2, the EJ22E 16 valve
I take it, there are different kinds of EJ22's out there. What's the "E" for?
Someone also told me that the engines are different for an automatic and manual tranie on the EJ22
can anyone clarify these things? What do i need for my vanagon with manual tranie??? or does it make a difference???


I'm not exactly sure but I think EJ22(E) refers to the 2nd generation OBDII EJ22 engine offered from 1995 on. OBDII is the current engine diagnostic system that all car manufacturers are currently using. The older EJ22 is an OBDI (All the EJ22s are 16-valve by the way) system from 1990 to 1994 with less sensors and slightly more basic ECU. As far as the OBDI EJ22 motors are concerned, regardless of whether it's an automatic or manual, the engines are the same. Only the wiring harness is somewhat different including an automatic transmission computer (which is discarded) for the automatic.
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vwlovr
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

weatherbill wrote:

The Zetec...I'll have to look that one up....what do they come out of???


comes out of a ford focus and contour, and other ford models both here and in europe. there are several variations of the zetec. check out bostig for more info.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B9_FeHKlXE
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