automatic transmission

[MattVW]

Why did VW design the automatic transmission with only 3 speeds? Makes no sense to me at all. You'd think they would design one that wouldn't get really high RPM's.

Would it be possible to have a 4 or 5 speed made, or a 3 that's geared higher? (auto)

RPM's going 55-65 with 3 speed auto?

RPM's going 55-65 with the 4 speed?

Which one do you recommend out of personal experience?

Thanks,

-MattVW
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-Matt

[90Doka_Guy]

I forget where i heard this (somebody please correct me if i am wrong), but i believe vw designed the transmission so at 55mph the engine would spin at 3200rpm (peak of the torque curve) to get best fuel economy at 55mph. This is right around where mine turns +/- speedo error. I would imagine this is the same with the auto tranny.

This is pure speculation, again someone correct me if i am wrong, but i think the auto is 3 speed because of the torque converter. When starting, the energy that is generated due to slippage just gets taken away as heat rather than wear on a clutch, allowing a lower? first gear ratio to be used at startup thus removing the need for the first gear ratio that is required(for low clutch wear) on the manual. It would make sense to me to have a 4th gear put in to remove some of the wasted energy due to the viscus flow of the fluids in the engine, but i would have to say the only reason i can think of that vw didnt put one in would be to keep the cost of the vehicle down.
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-'87 Westy
-'90 Tintop
-'90 DOKA

[MattVW]

"to keep costs down"... that's VW back in the day. Trying to be cheap.

Anyway, what you said there makes sense.

I wonder if having the auto designed with 3 gears has something to do with space availability because the distance from the crankshaft of the engine to where the rear axle is not very far.
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-Matt

[iltis74]

I don't know or care much about automatics, but it seems to me that darn near every one is a gear short of the same car with a manual. I don't think it has anything to do with being cheap, as these days most cars are auto, and still a gear short. The torque converter theory makes more sense, as it essentialy lengthens the gear.

[[email protected]]

If you were to cut down the RPM at the high end, I think the underpowered engine would have a hard time maintaining the speed.

I like my auto, its stout and does a pretty good job with the measly engine. I think they shift too fast on their own and I would like one of the diffs that tiico has/had that let you run 300 rpm less at speed only so I could stick with shorter tires on my Porsche wheels. But thats all I would want to change unless I went with a bigger powered engine.
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Markus

[Terry Kay]

The automatic is a 3 speed simply because if it had a OD 4th gear it would be downshifting constantly into 3rd anyway.

The Vanagon is a slug in weight, and isn't really slick into the wind.

Ever mole hill or headwind you'd hit the trans would be downshifting all of the time.

You'd have to install a 4 or 5 series ring & pinion for the trans to be able to hold 4th gear---

There goes your fuel economey.

But it would pull like hell--- and be a rocket ship off the lights--up to about 40 mph.

Trade off's.

The 3 speed trans where it is set up at is pretty efficiant, and pull's the rolling boat anchor down the road pretty good.
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T.K.

[morymob]

I had an auto 2yrs & it was a much handier driver for most uses. A lockup converter in 3rd would make great combo IMO.

[Wildthings]

I have had an auto in my 91 Multi since new. It is great for driving in slow traffic or starting out on hills. It seems very well matched to the engine and vehicle. Also have a manual in my 83 1/2. No problems there either, but if I had to deal with heavy traffic every day I would choose the auto.

For [email protected] you can easily change the shift points by adjusting the length of the throttle shaft at the throttle body. There is a screw adjustment in the end of the shaft. IIRC shortening the shaft causes the shift to be delayed.

[PDXWesty]

I've had both. I didn't think I would like the Auto at first, but after driving it now for two years, I love it. It seems to be close in RPM to the manual I had previously.

[psych-illogical]

STOP!!!! All these threads about autos lately. It's making me crazy. After my last couple of bouts with crawling, stop-and-go traffic going through Phoenix, I'm so ready to convert mine to an auto. My manual is leaking (output shaft seal) and it's also original at 170K+ miles. Living on borrowed time as far as that 3-4 slider is concerned. The last couple of new cars I bought I opted for the auto anyway. They typically work so damned well and in hilly country or towing they're the way to go and that dreaded stop-and-go shit, well...to me an auto seems to make more sense.

I'm starting to keep my eyes open for an 83-85 auto w/ A/C for cheap in my area. I've been scrounging the missing A/C parts for mine for a couple of years and am still missing a few bits. And, for the auto conversion, I've heard time and time again that having a donor vehicle is the best way to make sure you get ALL the little bits and pieces you need.
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83 1/2 Westy waterboxer
'57 Beetle-sold
Coupla '81 BMW motorcycles (R80G/S; R100RS)
'96 BMW R1100GS

[McVanagon]

[apratt]

I have a '91 westy with a 4 sp manual and a Tiico. Plenty of power.

My wife can't (won't) drive a manual, so I've been considering the auto swap. Can the auto handle the Tiico's power? Would I be wasting the benefits of the stronger engine?

I don't have oodles of cash - what kind of expense might I incur swapping transmisions? Let's say I find a professionally rebuilt trans for $1000 and want to do the rest of the work by self and with friends...

Thanks for the thread...

[iceracer]

aaprtt: Yes the auto can handle the extra power of either a 2.2wbx or up as well as a subie. I myself have an 88 auto and am thinking of converting it to a manual. I just miss shifting. May just end up selling it next yr and finding an older one to waste my $$ on. The never ending $$ pit of vanagons. argh!!!!!!!!!
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86 Syncro Wolfsburg edition
63 Beetle (The Iceracer)

[Vandoc]

I've had an 87 with automatic transmission for several years; no complaints; as earlier commented it seems to be well matched to the stock engine. Reliability is said to be good, often lasting 250-300K before needing overall, which is more than can be said for the manual.

[D Clymer]

The Vanagon had a 3 speed automatic simply because that's all VW/Audi had at the time. That same basic 3 speed was used in Jettas and Golfs, Audi 100s, Audi 80s and Vanagons. It's hard to believe, but in 1991 a $35,000 Audi 200 turbo had the same 3 speed automatic.

As far as the low gearing in the Vanagon, as others have said, with the poor power to weight ratio of all Vanagons, the gearing had to be low to give the van decent performance. VW did offer the T3 in Europe with a 112hp wasserboxer and that one had a 3.74:1 final drive versus the 4.09 of the other ones. That probably made the extra power of the 112 a wash, but at least it was a more relaxed cruiser.

Last I heard, there are still a few of those 3.74 final drives available, and that is the only semi affordable way of lowering the rpms on an auto Vanagon. However, GoWesty has been dipping into that supply and Tiico is apparently offering a limited number of rebuilt automatics with the taller final drive, so I have a feeling the supply of those is about gone.

David

[MattVW]

I remember getting an email from Tiico about the auto with the overdrive. Wish I had the money to afford one of those.

Here's my ideal Vanagon solution... if I could afford it right now.

Gowesty 2.4 engine
3 speed auto with overdrive (driving in stop-'n-go traffic every day.
Bigger wheels (15"x7") ...alloys or steel with VW hubcaps and chrome wheel trim.

What I plan to do with my Vanagon when I get it next summer.....

rubber floor mats
dash cover
full set of gauges
new wheels (SA, VW OEM steel wheels, or some other wheels)
headlight upgrade
hella fog lamps (essential for crosing the bridge esp. at night)
big brake upgrade front and rear (van-cafe) (steep hills)
deer whistle for front grill (lots of deer up here where I live.)
(fix as much of the stuff that needs to be fixed that I can do myself so I won't have to blow money on maintenance. Suere as hell not going to the dealer for any repairs. I'll go to the Autohaus II in San Anselmo or Valley Wagon Werkes in San Rafael. Those guys do good work.)

I'll probably have to restrict to driving on weekends if the gas prices keep climbing which I'll have no problem doing for two reasons; 1) parking is hard to find unless you drive in real early and 2) lots of peoples cars get broken into where my school is. There's a ton of broken window glass right outside the front gate. (There's some guy who paces up and down the street all day long looking into people's cars.) Funagon's Vanagon got stolen not to long ago if you recall. Happened within the area of my school.

This also brings up the topic of putting in a kill switch. That's one of my priorities.

-MattVW
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-Matt

[bazzamon]

3 speed autos were the normal auto set up in nearly all cars in that period. Performance was not the issue it is today. Most cars only had a top speed of about 80-85mph..... In those years is when cars were made properly & gas cost 5c a gallon. Times have changed....for the worst.! Bazz

[Terry Kay]

<<3 speed autos were the normal auto set up in nearly all cars in that period.>>

All cars?
I'm sorry this one is really not a fact.
GM was using the 700 R-4 4 speed OD gear box in their cars & trucks.


<< Performance was not the issue it is today.>>

So, I guess you can discount all of the GTO's, 442's the Vette's, Cuda's, Challeger's, Buick Grand Sports, and a bunch of other's since the mid 60's.


Hell,the Buick LeSabre station wagon had an LT'1 with a 4 speed automatic, and flew.

<< Most cars only had a top speed of about 80-85mph>>

What is most cars?

If your talking about the mid 80's when the paint was rolling off the backs of most GM Vehcles, and most of all Firds paint chaulked out a week after it was deliverd, yea--there was more unexciting cars to be had, than now or prior to that in the 60's and 70's.

80's saw 4 speed lock up converter automatics in most all full size US cars, excluding junk , like the K-Cars from Mopar, maybe the Ford Pinto, and the AMC Pacer.
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T.K.

[Wildthings]

Having a three speed automatic in a Vanagon was just the natural evolution in the engineering of the times, though maybe a decade late. One of the first mass produced transmissions for the lower end consumer market was the 2 speed Powerglide which was followed by a succession of three speeds and a few less popular four speeds. The Powerglide was GM's main automatic for 15+ years in the 50's and 60's. With big torquey engines, 2 and 3 speed transmissions were quite sufficient to move a car down the road smartly.

VW and other small car manufacturers had less success with autos than Americas big three. At least part of the problem for VW was that their torque converter didn't allow the engines to develop sufficient RPM when pulling away from a stop. Late 60's and early 70's VW's equipped with autos were pretty much known as being dogs, especially the T4's with their high gearing. Slowly over a course of a couple of decades VW increase the stall speed of their torque converters, and by the time the WBX was introduced in the Vanagon the stall speed had reached 2700.

Torque converters from the 82-83 AC Vanagons (and maybe the WBX Vanagons as well) can be retrofitted into earlier ACVW's enhancing performance.

[D Clymer]

There's no doubt that VW was way behind when it came to automatics. It wasn't just the lack of a 4th gear that made the VW/Audi box outdated. It was also lacking the lockup torque converter that many other cars had by the mid 1980s. 4 speed automatics started coming on line in the later 1980s, but it was not until the 1990 Passat that VW finally had a 4 speed automatic. They had been working on a joint venture 4 speed automatic with Renault since the mid 1980s, but that fell apart, and they had to go it alone.

I remember reading an interview with Ferdinand Piech when he was chairman of Audi. The journalist interviewing him questioned the outdated 3 speed automatic in the Audi new 182 hp Audi 200. His reply was, "For automatic transmissions Audi is completely dependent on our parent company - Volkswagen. They are working on a 4 speed automatic with Renault right now, but unfortunately neither company is known for fast work."

David