Head and Case Problems

[Veritas167]

I recently had some work done for a 1776 that I am building. The valve guides needed replacing. I also needed the appropriate machine work done on the heads and case (as well as a line bore). I picked the parts up last week and cleaned everything good for the build today (also checked the machine work). What I found isn't good.

Here is what I found first.

then the others were split like this

I then proceeded to call the place where I had the work done (they are reputable, just dont know if I should mention who did the work. Been in the VW business 40 years). The guy said it was very very common and assured me it was nothing worry about and that i shouldn't worry about it about. Also, he reassured me that he wouldn't lie to me and was in the business for 40 years. I was skeptical.

So I figured, if it was common, it would be on Samba. I searched. Found this:http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...highlight=

After reading that I took a close look and noticed this. Notice that there is a considerable amount of material missing around the guide here.

I was not informed of any of this damage and there was no note of it on my invoice.



But wait, there is more. I have never had a VW case machined before, but I have worked some in a machine shop. Is removing material with some kind of chisel normal? It has been done on all of the bores except for one. Makes no sense to me.

The machine was also poorly done in general. Here is seems that the tooling was off at one point, making a nice gouge in the cylinder bore.

I have read in Bill Fischer's book that the clearances for the case cylinder bores are not supposed to be tight. (To account for thermal expansion I suppose). Fischer listed the correct measurements for the bores and also said that the clearance limit should be .005 inches. For 92mm cylinders, measurement should be 3.792 inches. Mine were between 3.798 and 3.800 depending on which bore.


Am I going wrong here? Are all these things normal? Or should I get my money back and a new set of heads? What about the machine work?

Thanks for the help everyone in advance.

[fredster]

Looks like those valve guides have been installed a bit roughly. I wouldn't want those heads on any engine of mine. That case machine work looks sloppy. I'd be on the phone to them - if they dig their heels in name 'em and shame 'em on here.

[speedyshift74]

I don't care how long the shop has been in business , there is NO Excuse for the sloppy machine work... I would make them FIX,Replace, Or Refund your money. I would not use the heads like that . The guides in the exhaust port can be smoothed over . Most Turbo builders remove the guide in the port anyway. As for the valve spring area, you will have to weld up the area and redrill for a new guide. Really more money to do than worth . But if the case was bored for 90.5/92mm bore and the holes are way to big around the cylinders you can go up to 94mm and possibly save the case. Either way , I would opt for some other heads and case from another machine shop. Try to reason with the shop . If they don't want to help you out, let the world know ! Think about it , you and the family are out on the highway for a nice drive and then BANG!! You drop a valve and grind your engine up into hamburger.... By then you really don't have much to stand on with the machine shop ..

[Eric_S]

[Tvättbjörn]

[dan97019]

I would not run those I would go back to the shop and raise hell and if thats the kind of work they do they just lost their reputable status for sure, there is no excuse for doing that kind of work I can easily see where one of those loose chunks around the guide is going to fall off and end up in a cylinder.

[speedyshift74]

Ok a Refund won't work if you don't have another case to use . It will help out though. The money can be used to get another case and heads done correctly.

[beetleboy58]

Post the shop name up.

[Veritas167]

Thanks for the responses guys. I really hope that the shop will be willing to reimburse me. I will let you guys know after I call them on Monday.

The shop is Tim's VW out of Austell, GA. He also does the machine work for other shops in the north Georgia area.

I have access to a mill next door and in the shop at school so I have been looking into just purchasing the tools to do the cutting myself.

[Max Welton]

I think the proper way to install new guides is to heat the head up in an oven to avoid such damage, isn't it?

Max
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[Dougy Dee]

Looks like oversized guides were used where not needed.
Did they split them all or just one?

[Veritas167]

Yes, all 4 exhaust valve-guide bosses were split.

And yes Max, I believe the correct way to install the guides is to heat the head.

[Clyde Maddox]

Freezing the guides before pressing them in also helps.

[DSTMULE]

Thanks for info..........Socal area....any shops to stay away from? Rimco is close to me and i've never heard anything bad bout them???

[Veritas167]

I am not sure what you are asking DSTMULE. I am not out of the SoCal area, so I don't know much about shops out there. There is a section here on the Samba for buyer/seller feedback. I assume that would be appropriate for finding places/people to avoid.

[Dougy Dee]

[Veritas167]

The shop supplied them. The heads had old guides in them but they needed replacing.

[Clyde Maddox]

All it takes is a pair of calipers and a snap gage to see if you have the right interference fit. They must have been in a hurry, or training a new kid.

[Veritas167]

I think that is pretty unlikely. But if you are right, I really wish they would not train new kids with my engine parts. Thats what the already broken parts are for.

[nsracing]

Can you actually call this "machine work?"

The splits and breaks might have come from hammering the old guides out. The best way is to core them out first and gently tap them out. Find the right size new guide and lube it plenty to gently push them in with a press. Hammering mushrooms the guides and WILL broach the guide bores.

While the rough scratches do not affect the function in the bores, the case looks like it had been through hell with chisel marks. If the set up is rigid and toolbit with correct geometry, the cut should be smooth. It does not even have a chamfer cut. This will mean that the bores are way oversize so the corner on the bottem of the barrels will fit. Let me see...it was done in a drill press, right?

A lot of these type of shops will give you their "very long experience" so you do not question their practices. "Butchers" is the word I will choose.
Damn hacks!

Those heads are trash. I would not use them.

I bet the price was just right or hard-to-beat on these "machine work".