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Franklinstower Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2006 Posts: 1895 Location: PNW
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: best oil grade ? |
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If I let me Vanagon sit for a week ('89 westy) with out starting it, a couple of my lifters will leak down. I tried Marvel Mystery Oil but it did not make any difference. I was wondering if changing oil grades will help. It is not often that I do not drive her for a week, but it does happen every couple of months. I am in the PNW where temps during the winter are between 20 and 50. they always pump back up, It just takes 5-10 minutes....
Thanks,
Paul _________________ '89 Westy - EJ25/22 Frank 4.44 5mt
'75 Miami Blue Sunroof FI Standard Bug |
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ValleyHappy Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2007 Posts: 251 Location: Walla Walla, WA
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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This is the type of thread that turns into an oil weight pissing match. All I'll say is I use 20W50...because the Samba consus at the time I did my search led me to. I still get noisy lifters if my van sits for 5 days though. _________________ 09 Suzuki SX-4 Crossover |
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90Doka_Guy Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2007 Posts: 548 Location: South Jersey
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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i use 20w50 and don't have any problems as long as i park on a level surface. They get a little noisy if i park on a hill nose up for more than a couple hours though. _________________ -'87 Westy
-'90 Tintop
-'90 DOKA |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50338
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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I like synthetics as they tend to keep the engine cleaner. This should in turn translate in to cleaner surfaces inside the lifters. |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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Really helps to use an oil filter that has a check valve. I use a Mahle/Mann but there are others that are good also. |
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j_dirge Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 4641 Location: Twain Harte, CA
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Randy in Maine wrote: |
Really helps to use an oil filter that has a check valve. I use a Mahle/Mann but there are others that are good also. |
Why do you need a oil filter w/ check valve on the 2.1?
Isn't the oil filter mounted such that it holds oil when the pump stops? Oil can't drain out of the filter unless you park your vanagon on ts roof.
As far as the lifter noise is concerned. Nothing I've tried eliminates it. Have even been running 10-30W syn for a while and still, if I leave it for 3 or more days, that infernal click-clacking comes back. In some cases it will not go away until the vehicle as run 20 iles or more.. or the eninge been started and stopped on a half dozen errand run type trips. Winter seems worse than summer.
Cold? Condensation?
Ideas? |
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ValleyHappy Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2007 Posts: 251 Location: Walla Walla, WA
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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"Winter seems worse than summer"
You may want to run a lighter oil in the winter? The lifter clatter is caused by a lack of oil in the lifter to fully pump it up....caused by oil draining down (cuz the lilter seals don't completely seal anymore). Here is where the check valve-German filter is thought to help-prevent draindown. The 20W50 oil is thought to be, as I understand it, heavier weight and thus less prone to leakage around valve seals and others. However, people like myself have had the issue and gave it a dose of Marvels, and 'cleaned' the seals with the thinner oil...then went back to 20W50. It worked for me for the most part, but their is no getting around leaking seals I guess when it sits for 5 days.
You may want to run a lighter oil in the winter to help pump up your lifters faster...this may help. Or try a little Marvels? _________________ 09 Suzuki SX-4 Crossover |
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Franklinstower Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2006 Posts: 1895 Location: PNW
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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I think I will try a new filter;a 5/50 syn and drive it every 3 days. Then I won't start any more oil threads! _________________ '89 Westy - EJ25/22 Frank 4.44 5mt
'75 Miami Blue Sunroof FI Standard Bug |
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tikibus Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2006 Posts: 834 Location: Rochester, NY
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Search.
This topic has been beaten to death.
Overall, Heavy (viscosity) is the norm. 20W50. The Right oil Filter which has been mentioned above is right.
putting a lower oil weight into engine whilst cold is a topic in of itself.
I'm gonna put a bet out you have a Orange Oil Filter on your rig.
Not good.
Lower RPM's the Oil Idiot light Flickers.
Use the Search, Luke.
_________________ Happy Trails!
Mark
______________
Founding member of the Empire State VW Camping Club.
http://www.empirevwcamping.org/
1984 Westy - Tiki
1997 Honda Civic -The Green Hornet
1971 Volvo P-1800E- needs TLC |
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devesvws Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2004 Posts: 1540 Location: madison va
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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one problem i dont have next time you change the oil. buy 2 wix/vw/mann oil filters, and 20w50 oil and a qt of motor flush. do not drain oil but do change oil fliter and add about a pint of motor flush to the oil. let it idle for 5 min or less. let drain for about 1 hour add new fliter and oil. that should do the trick. or try adding a qt of transmission fluid on your next oil change. that works well too. |
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0to60in6min Samba Member
Joined: November 27, 2006 Posts: 3416 Location: OR & CA (Oregon/California)
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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I don't want to hi hijack your topic but I do have a question related to oil because I have the same problem as yours...
I am thinking about to switch to synthetic oil... but I heard different opinions...
1- do not switch if the engine is using mineral oil for while.. (15k miles +)... There will be oil leaks...
2- no problem at all to switch to synthetic, anytime you want...
so the question is is it OK to switch to synthetic if the engine has 50K+ miles?...
please help... anyone has an idea?... Terry Kay, Tecentlife?
many thanks |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50338
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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Most engines will not leak any worse running synthetic than they did with dino. Thirty plus years ago synthetics got a bad rap for leaking, it doesn't much apply anymore. |
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K58 Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006 Posts: 1173 Location: Santa Barbara
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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mine does this on occassion if I don't start it for a week and the lifter (only one) quiets down after a long drive
I believe the cure is to start it at least every 4 days and let it run for a few minutes
besides that, 20/50 Castrol and Seafoam keep it quiet |
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msinabottle Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005 Posts: 3492 Location: Denver Area, Colorado
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Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:42 pm Post subject: Don't Forget... |
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Don't forget for a moment to put in something to replace the Phosphorus and Zinc they've been taking out of the oils.
I've been talking to a lot of experts since Terry K raised the subject.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=268817
This is, very unfortunately, for real, folks!
Best! _________________ 'Winston,' '84 1.9 WBX Westy
Vanagon Poet Laureate: "I have suffered in
many ways, but never, never, never in silence." |
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levi Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005 Posts: 5522 Location: Las Vegas
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:19 am Post subject: |
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0to60in6min wrote: |
I don't want to hi hijack your topic but I do have a question related to oil because I have the same problem as yours...
I am thinking about to switch to synthetic oil... but I heard different opinions...
1- do not switch if the engine is using mineral oil for while.. (15k miles +)... There will be oil leaks...
2- no problem at all to switch to synthetic, anytime you want...
so the question is is it OK to switch to synthetic if the engine has 50K+ miles?...
please help... anyone has an idea?... Terry Kay, Tecentlife?
many thanks |
First, I don't have the answer. But, I think I know why some think this *might* be the case, and it wouldn't be after only 15,000 but more like 70,000. The dino oil would get caked into the seals, but synthetic I believe is made of smaller molecules, enabling it to penetrate into, and wash away, the dino oil and allowing oil to seep through the seals. Is this what really happens? dunno _________________ One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
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candyman Samba Trout Slayer
Joined: December 20, 2003 Posts: 2694 Location: Missoula MT
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:48 am Post subject: |
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i always run 20/50 weight with mahle filters. I never use synthetic as i change my oil too often to justify the price. I don' like the idea of keeping oil in my engine over 3000 miles. in the winter i get the noisy lifters if i don't run the van for a couple of days. the cure for me is i dump about a pint of marvel mystery oil in the oil (make sure you oil level is low enough to accept this amount) and no more noisy lifters. works for me eveytime. in the summer i don't get the lifter noise so i son't bother with the marvel mystery. But i do run it in my gas tank 4 times a year! |
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j_dirge Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 4641 Location: Twain Harte, CA
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: |
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ValleyHappy wrote: |
"Winter seems worse than summer"
You may want to run a lighter oil in the winter? The lifter clatter is caused by a lack of oil in the lifter to fully pump it up....caused by oil draining down (cuz the lilter seals don't completely seal anymore). Here is where the check valve-German filter is thought to help-prevent draindown. The 20W50 oil is thought to be, as I understand it, heavier weight and thus less prone to leakage around valve seals and others. However, people like myself have had the issue and gave it a dose of Marvels, and 'cleaned' the seals with the thinner oil...then went back to 20W50. It worked for me for the most part, but their is no getting around leaking seals I guess when it sits for 5 days.
You may want to run a lighter oil in the winter to help pump up your lifters faster...this may help. Or try a little Marvels? |
I'm at 160k miles on my '89.. and I'm beginning to think its just the age thing, mostly.
I've been running 10-30W thru last summer. I recently changed it out to 10-30W Syn and installed a Mann filter with the check valve. At the same time I installed an OP gauge and was all set to do some serious attention-paying to the engine.
Here's the deal, though. I live on the coast in San Fran. The temps between summer and winter are only 5-8 deg. apart. (Think Mark Twain here). So I'm not sure why I'm hearing clankity lifters more in winter than summer.. except that I drive a lot less miles in winter.
I've even considered parking the van on the street and using it more.. (clankity lifters happen after the van sits idle for 3 days or more) but then there's the rust problem of leaving it in the ocean air. I swear! There's just no winning here.
Wrt running 10-30W Syn...I'm watching OP and it looks OK, although a little low.. which I attribute to the 10-30 Syn. I'm seeing 54 at cold start running..9-10 at idle when hot and about 8psi/1000 rpm when hot (meaning at 2200rpm, I'll see about 18-20 psi oil pressure.
When Summer nears and we start driving across the valley to summer destinations I'll go back to 20-50W and see if I can get up to the magic 10psi/1000rpm number. (I'm just not ready to swap in a new engine yet.. time and money.)
Anyway.. the lifter clankity is there, regardless.. and I've mostly given up on it, because now I can't hear the lifter so much since the rear manifold cracked at the hanger and the engine sounds like an aircooled!
Marvel Mystery Oil !
My brother used to pour that suff into his '52 Willys. Maybe he still does. Can't hurt to try it, I guess
I'll give it a shot.. and see if I can hear the lifters over the sound of my new "shortened" exhaust system. |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: |
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In my opinion.....
1) Hydraulic lifters like clean oil. I use a 15-50 Mobil 1 myself with good results. I change mine ever 5K miles along with my Mahle/Mann filter that I buy in a 6 pack so that I have them around.
2) Horizontally opposed engines (including my subuaru outback from hell) like oil filters that have a check valve in them to keep oil in the lifters.
3) The lifters need to be "zeroed out" once in a while to make sure the pre-load is corect. I do it once a year since it is pretty quick to do so. |
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j_dirge Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 4641 Location: Twain Harte, CA
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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Randy in Maine wrote: |
In my opinion.....
2) Horizontally opposed engines (including my subuaru outback from hell) like oil filters that have a check valve in them to keep oil in the lifters.
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Maybe they do. I'm not questioning if the engine runs better with one filter vs another. What I am trying to get at is the "check valve" issue.
1. Are people using "check valve" and "anti-syphon valve" interchangeably? (just to claify)
and
2. What affect can either type of valve have in the case of a clankity lifter if:
a. the filter sits below the standing oil level line and
b. it is mounted at an angle upside down such that it remains completely full of oil when the vehicle sits, with engine not running.
It seems that the source of clankity lifter is likely (as ValleyHappy posted)
that the lifter is hindered by debri and/or wear.. and that condition is exacerbated when the engine sits for a period of time and the oil settles away from the surfaces of the lifter. It seems this could be worsened if the oil is not clean and some debris is left sitting on surfaces after the oil settles away.
I'm just not seeing how the check valve could improve that.. there is ALWAYS a full filter of oil there on a 2.1. No?
Am not looking for a fight.. I am just trying to understand the mechanics of this problem.. a noisy lifter just can't be a good thing.
It sounds freakin horrid! |
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m2008s Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2007 Posts: 139 Location: Canton, ohio 44707
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Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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dude. use 4 qts of reg. 10w30 oil, good grade or high mileage. then put a quart if rislone in it, made to help those lifters. it works WONDERS |
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