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Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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 Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:03 am Post subject: |
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I have a few good used ones.
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Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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birddog1
Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2006
Posts: 953
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| birddog1 wrote: |
my answer..it depends
If you have the system on the car I would keep it on and maintained. If you don't have the system AND you live in a warmer climate i.e West Coast or Fla I wouldn't spend the money on buying a system or bother dropping the engine solely to put it on. It's benefit is during cold weather. I wouldn't bother with it unless you live in an area where it's frequently below freezing. |
The above is a perfect example of why each one of you asking questions here should take the time to educate yourselves by reading the manuals .. The thermostat was on all the cars for a reason even cars destined for warm climates.. Perhaps second guessing the engineers that designed the product is a better way though???
Anyone telling you to run without the thermostat needs to be put on ignore  Would you remove the thermostat from your wifes new Buick if you lived in Florida??? I thought so. 
Jim- |
If you don't know the difference between a Buick and an ACVW I can't help you but I've driven my cars without a thermostat hooked up for 35 years, I haven had a problem and I generally get close to 200K before I rebuild. So if there's a problem someone will need to prove it
As I said I wouldn't remove the system, my cars just never came with one ,but if you live in a warm climate I wouldn't worry about enough to spend money on it. You think the German's were going to build a different system based on where the car was delivered? It was designed to cover all climates.
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cyberdyne systems 101
Sambanator
Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 415
Location: in my own little world
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:17 am Post subject: |
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I had to reinstate the thermostat and flaps on my engine after a P.O. took them out. i sourced parts from a local aircooled mechanic, who warned me against putting them in and not to use a second hand thermostat!
Well he obviously didnt know how they work, its amazing how many people know better than the manufacturer.
There is more risk of harm to engine wear/running in not having them.
CS 101
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When I think of something to say - I'll be the first to know
56' Oval
71' Westy |
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Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 8:22 am Post subject: |
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The shutter not only turn the air off and on, they control where it goes. And that is important.
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Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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Hophead
Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2005
Posts: 940
Location: Chico,Ca
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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If cars in warm climates don't need the thermo/flaps assy. then wouldn't you think VW would have saved the $$$ and just not installed them on all their cars sold in "warm weather" markets? It shows you still don't get it Bird Dog 1. Engine operating temps should not be confused with ambient temps. The flap position does help with air flow routing. But hey, you won't have to worry about spending any money on it....
Yes they designed them to work in all climates.... With all the tin and cooling INSTALLED.
_________________
70' Beetle Pan off Resto
2110cc
82 X 90.5
P&P 043 40x35.5
9.6-1 comp
FK-8
48 IDA |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76935
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Hophead wrote: |
| If cars in warm climates don't need the thermo/flaps assy. then wouldn't you think VW would have saved the $$$ and just not installed them on all their cars sold in "warm weather" markets? |
Late model Mexican cars did not have them.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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But did they have additional baffles in the fan housing.
As horse power ratings went up, look what VW did to the insides of the fan housings. 25-36-early 40hp just had throttle rings on the air intakes. But they didnt shut it off completely. Then when they went to the fresh air heaters, then started installing the shutters. When they went to the 1500/1600 single port, they installed some baffles inside along with the shutters. When they went to the doghouse coolers, the REALLY baffled the inside of the fan housing.
Mexi beetles were never supposed to leave Mexico, which is a very warm climate. Yes, a few made it across the border, but then you know how secure our Mexican border is. I would like to see the inside of a real Mexi beetle fan housing to see how it is set up compared to the german ones.
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Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| Russ Wolfe wrote: |
But did they have additional baffles in the fan housing.
I would like to see the inside of a real Mexi beetle fan housing to see how it is set up compared to the german ones. |
No baffles in place of the flaps that were removed. In fact, the engines are built as if the existing flaps and thermostat were removed. The only difference is that the threaded stud on the bottom of the case isn't there, or tapped.
The inside of the Mexican shroud is virtually the same as a German shroud. After all, it is a German design.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Bob Hoover
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: Thermostat |
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| Glenn wrote: |
Late model Mexican cars did not have them. |
----------------------------------------------------------------
Two reasons for that:
Mexican-built 1600 engines for domestic use are de-rated to only 45hp through the use of dished pistons to reduce the compression ratio. This allows the engine to run on Pemex 'regular.'
The engines use a sophisticated multi-point fuel-injection system and computerized combustion controller. Temperature management is taken care of by the on-board computer, which alters the injector on-time.
If you buy a fully assembled 'export' engine and intend to run a carb, SOP is to tap the case to accept the stud for the thermostat bracket.
-Bob Hoover |
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Zundfolge1432
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12467
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone wanna dispute and argue against using thermostat now
I thought so |
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Zundfolge1432
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12467
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| birddog1 wrote: |
| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| birddog1 wrote: |
my answer..it depends
If you have the system on the car I would keep it on and maintained. If you don't have the system AND you live in a warmer climate i.e West Coast or Fla I wouldn't spend the money on buying a system or bother dropping the engine solely to put it on. It's benefit is during cold weather. I wouldn't bother with it unless you live in an area where it's frequently below freezing. |
The above is a perfect example of why each one of you asking questions here should take the time to educate yourselves by reading the manuals .. The thermostat was on all the cars for a reason even cars destined for warm climates.. Perhaps second guessing the engineers that designed the product is a better way though???
Anyone telling you to run without the thermostat needs to be put on ignore Would you remove the thermostat from your wifes new Buick if you lived in Florida??? I thought so.
Jim- |
If you don't know the difference between a Buick and an ACVW I can't help you but I've driven my cars without a thermostat hooked up for 35 years, I haven had a problem and I generally get close to 200K before I rebuild. So if there's a problem someone will need to prove it
As I said I wouldn't remove the system, my cars just never came with one ,but if you live in a warm climate I wouldn't worry about enough to spend money on it. You think the German's were going to build a different system based on where the car was delivered? It was designed to cover all climates.
. |
Run Forrest Gump Run  A wise man once said " If you don't laugh at least once a day you've not been listening" Thanks for the laugh my friend
Jim- |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 12:51 am Post subject: Re: Thermostat |
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| Bob Hoover wrote: |
Mexican-built 1600 engines for domestic use are de-rated to only 45hp through the use of dished pistons to reduce the compression ratio. This allows the engine to run on Pemex 'regular.'
The engines use a sophisticated multi-point fuel-injection system and computerized combustion controller. Temperature management is taken care of by the on-board computer, which alters the injector on-time.
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It may come as a surprise to you, but the Mexican production engines that were fitted to the cars over the last 10 years of production actually had domed pistons to increase the CR. At 7.75:1, that's higher than any German 1600 came with. They do just fine with Pemex 87 octane. While the sticker on the underside of the engine lid says 44hp (as does the sales brochure), it is the same rating as the earlier (slower), lower CR, carburated engine. My assumption is that they didn't bother to change the label.
I can't say what pistons are used on the "export" long blocks. Perhaps they used dished pistons for use with a stock carb.
I wouldn't use the word "sophisticated" to describe the simple FI system used. After all, there's no mass air flow sensor whatsoever. It relies on a TPS, 2 temp sensors, a MAP sensor, and an O2 sensor. Ignition timing is also controled by the ECM.
There is no way for any FI system to make an engine run hotter or cooler. Emissions standards dictate proper stoicometric running, so there's no leeway in the A/F mixture. Just in case you wondered, Mexican emissions standards are the same as the US Federal standards (but without OBD2)
The reason there's no thermostat and flaps is because the majority of the cars operate in a tropical climate.
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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68Bug-lite
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2005
Posts: 1087
Location: Tustin, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Thermostat |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| My assumption is that they didn't bother to change the label... |
Seems like they didn't bother with alot of things on those mexican motors  . Probably more of a cost cutting factor to sell vehicles to Jose-six pack.
Those newer style Thermostats... They were never actually on a production car?
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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My buddy in Mexico City has a 94 Beetle and has not messed with it. It still has the factory thermostat, and it is the same style as the German cars had. So at least up to 94 did not use that new style thermostat.
I don't know exactly when VW de Mexico eliminated the t'stat and flaps, but I do know it must be somewhere between 94 and 01.
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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DAW
Samba Member
Joined: June 09, 2007
Posts: 4
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Someone once told me that the earliest Porsche 356's had manual (cable-operated) control thermostat. Even if it's not true, it is a possible approach. I never forgot to take the carb-heat off when flying my antique airplane; I think I could manage a manual thermostat.
DAW |
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Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I wouldn't use the word "sophisticated" to describe the simple FI system used. After all, there's no mass air flow sensor whatsoever. It relies on a TPS, 2 temp sensors, a MAP sensor, and an O2 sensor. Ignition timing is also controled by the ECM.
There is no way for any FI system to make an engine run hotter or cooler. Emissions standards dictate proper stoicometric running, so there's no leeway in the A/F mixture. Just in case you wondered, Mexican emissions standards are the same as the US Federal standards (but without OBD2) |
Hmm, that sounds like a Type 3 FI system to me. Throttle position switch, air and head temp sensor, manifold air pressure sensor. Timing is controlled by the distributor, and they dont have an O2 sensor.
_________________
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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Russ Wolfe
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: Thermostat |
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| 68Bug-lite wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
| My assumption is that they didn't bother to change the label... |
Seems like they didn't bother with alot of things on those mexican motors . Probably more of a cost cutting factor to sell vehicles to Jose-six pack.
Those newer style Thermostats... They were never actually on a production car?
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Those were the ones, that if they failed, they failed in the closed position.
_________________
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey
Gary: OK. Ima poop. |
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jamesdagg
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2007
Posts: 3364
Location: B.C.Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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Hey that looks like maybe it could be adapted to replace the thermostat in a '71 oil bath air cleaner. Here's both.
jim
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'72 FI Westy
'71 Super rear inside defrost vents no longer available |
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gobeatle
Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2007
Posts: 97
Location: Mid MIchigan
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| I'm trying to get my cooling system back to original on my std. 73 and it looks like Mid-America is one of the few still selling new thermostats, which are on backorder. I hope the quality is good. I called Cip1 and they referred me to Samba. Does anyone other than Mid-Amer. sell new thermostats. |
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ampegboy1
Samba Member
Joined: March 21, 2007
Posts: 291
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Hi gobeatle,
eVWParts still have the original, bellows-type thermostat listed on their website.
The one Mid-America lists is the new, Mexican-style one which fails in the 'flaps closed' position.
Regards,
Michael
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1973 GT Beetle |
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