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Pop Out Window Restoration
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EDragnDean
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Joined: July 13, 2005
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Location: Vancouver, WA
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:59 pm    Post subject: Pop Out Window Restoration Reply with quote

The PO of my 66 bus had removed 4 of the 6 pop out windows and replaced them with stationary glass. The two pop outs that were still on the bus had significant issues, and deep scratches from a DA sander. Evidently when painted, the body man chose to sand the window frames with the glass in them. Long story short; I decided to restore and replace all 6 pop out windows.

Thanks for those who posted on the Samba previous, the info provided by the search button helped significantly. I thought I would compile and share how I restored the windows, feel free to comment or add any criticism.

I collected 14 pop out windows from various sources, and ended up with 8 completed/restored windows. DA sanding damage to glass, cracked glass, or window frames that were rusted beyond salvage were the main issues.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Tools you will need. Drill, drill bits, screw drivers, 4mm x .70 taps, sharp pocket knife, 3 in 1 silicone lubricant, PB blaster, baggies for screws, four bar clamps (think mine were 24”).
(Note: original tap size is 3.5mm x .6 pitch)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Parts; Stainless screws from local hardware store 4mm x .70 -9 per window, seals 3 per window, (I used seals from Wolfsburg West, good quality, no issues). Frame to body seal 221847135A, Outer frame seal 221847131A, and window glass to frame seal 221845325B.


Tear Down:

I first removed all the tint / stickers / etc, from the glass. Then removed the outside frame seal, I used a pair of pliers, and just ripped the old seal off.

Once you have removed the seal, you can see 2 screws at the top and 2 screws at the bottom of the window frame, just to one side of the split where the two halves join to, easy to find because of the enlarged opening where the screws go. In some cases, I couldn't see the screws because of the rust in the frames. If you can see the screw, soak it with PB blaster, and come back to the screws tomorrow. If you can't, plan on drilling it out anyway.

For those screws which can’t be removed, I ended up drilling them out with a 1/8 inch drill bit (proper for the tap). Don’t worry about drilling them all the way out, you would break the glass anyway. Just drill enough to remove the head of the screw, and clear the remains of the screw between the two frame pieces.

Pull the frame halves apart, remove the glass, drill and tap the necessary screws, including hinge screws. In the end, I drilled and tapped all the holes, since I only had one or at tops two originals per frame. If you choose to use the enlarged screws like I did, you need to increase the size of the enlarged opening (outside portion of frame, not where the screws seat), as the heads of the Phillips screws were to large to clear.

I sent the frames out for sand blasting, zinc primer, and powder coat. Then proceeded to reassemble.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Reassembly:

Frames were beautiful after powder coat. I re-tapped the holes after the powder coat as even with the little rubber blocks, coat / paint fouled the threads. I had to remove the outside edge of the powder coating from the threaded tab that slides inside the other frame half on each side, as the powder coat build up made the connection to tight. I used a sharp razor blade to remove the powder coat from the edge, being careful not to scratch the visible portions of the frame (see picture below). Work on playing with the various halves and see which ones fit well together, complete your planning before starting assembly.

Difference in screw size... You can also see where I cut down the powder coat on the edges.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


While the glass was out, I removed all residue from the glass, using a razor blade for the residual rubber, and then hitting the glass with a glass wax and residue stripper product to really make it clean up.

Fit the glass to frame seal on the glass. I did not need any adhesive, and had no issues installing the Wolfsburg seals.

Get two frame halves, and work the details / fit, and screws / screw holes into a decent fit without the glass. They should fit tight, but not be hard to connect or screw together without the seals and glass in. No clamping at this point just do the fits now instead of mid assembly.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Slide one frame half over the window. Hit the outside of the rubber on the glass to frame seal with 3 in 1 silicone lubricant, only on the one half. Watch where your logos end up. Should be on the upper rear corner of the assembled window, so pre-think a little, reverse opening fronts would be different then rear two and driver’s side is different than passenger (technical, but as long as you are going through the effort…). Once you get the first half of the frame mostly on, I pressed down on the frame on a soft surface to get a little better completion.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now 3 in 1 the other half of the seal, and slide the second half on. You will NOT get a tight connection, that’s what the clamps are for.

Use screw type bar clamps. Easy with these, and it will not really be possible with anything else. I placed the now ready to assemble window onto two bar clamps, the clamps underneath were going top to bottom in the frame (see picture). Use wood scraps or towels, etc to prevent from scratching up your frames. Gently, not tight, tighten down the two lower clamps until the frame is squared up (see picture). Then install the two top clamps, front to back (use wood here, the screw pressure is greater), and tighten down evenly between the two bar clamps (alternate). Use the clamps until everything is tight, and you can see the screw threads through the frame. Install the four screws, 2 top, 2 bottom, and remove clamps.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Your window is now done! Install the outer frame seal 221847131A. Frame to body seal if you choose and install.
Outer seal orientation:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Total cost not counting acquiring windows, or tool costs. Screws were 45 cents each (54 total approx $25). Seals about $18 per window. Sand blast / prime /powder coat, $20 per window. Total $253 for six windows.

I estimate labor was about 2 1/2 - 3 hours per window, start to finish not counting drive time, or Samba surfing.

Good Luck.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Tips for installation of window back into Bus:
- Make sure window opening in Bus is clean. Clean and wax paint.
- Coat outer rubber seal with baby powder.
- It usually helps to have 2 people, one to hold the window from outside while you install the screws from inside the Bus. If not, attach the pop-out latch to the frame and screw it to body so the window will not fall and break.
- Insert 1-2 screws first. I often do the top or 2nd from the top screw first. Sometimes it helps to use a small pick to get the holes to line up.
- Using new pop-out window screws is a good idea. Wolfsburg West sells new screws in original and +1 oversize sizes.

Inner seal installation from later in this thread


Last edited by EDragnDean on Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Whitey60DC
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

killer job and nice writeup!
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Vintage Split
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice job. Thanks for sharing. Any issues with the rubber bulging because of the larger screws?
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my65vert
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nice work, could probably save even more money with the do it yourself powder coating kit and bake it in your oven?
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Kombisutra;
I'm starting to get little wafts of bus stink coming from the north. Something about the unique scent of drivers seat padding when it's glued together with mouse piss and shit that really gets me going... and I'm smelling it! Oh yeah! Time to start loading up the equipment.
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EDragnDean
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vintage Split wrote:
Nice job. Thanks for sharing. Any issues with the rubber bulging because of the larger screws?


Nope, screw heads don't recess as well, but no issues. I could have gone for the correct screws, they just weren't readily available.
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Nor_AL_67
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice write up should be sticky material. Is the place that blasted/powder- coated local or did you send them off?
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EDragnDean
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nor_AL_67 wrote:
Nice write up should be sticky material. Is the place that blasted/powder- coated local or did you send them off?


Local. Ken's Powder Coat in Puyallup WA. I've had work done by Awesome Powder Coat (advertiser) before as well, but needed a color match so wanted to see the color samples first hand.
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BumbleBuggy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice! I still have my seals in a box. I managed to get one frame done but I'm scared to pop it open because that sucker is hanging by a thread. Decided I need to replace all my frames before I finish mine up.

Nice work bro!

Can't wait to see how your 356 comes out! Very Happy
2 brothers, 4 VW's, must be genetic.

BTW dad said that he's leaving the super to your oldest.
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EDragnDean
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

356 Razz Razz

My eldest has been to four shows this summer!! She is getting the VW itch, I'm sure she will be excited to hear about the super. I'll restore your pop-outs if you want, It's been fun but time consuming.

D
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darkburst
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One tip...DON"T powder coat!

It is too thick and you can see all the trouble it creates.
I restored my frames and just painted them. They slid
together easy as pie and no need for the contraption
to squeeze them together. Think of all that stress on
those little screws now as well... Rolling Eyes

The bad outweighs the good when you powder coat.
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campingbox Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

darkburst wrote:
One tip...DON"T powder coat!

It is too thick and you can see all the trouble it creates.
I restored my frames and just painted them. They slid
together easy as pie and no need for the contraption
to squeeze them together. Think of all that stress on
those little screws now as well... :roll:

The bad outweighs the good when you powder coat.


I've assembled original paint popout frames and they have always beed a press fit. I don't think the stress on the screws is a problem.....it's just that the rubber itself needs to compress to get a tight seal.
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Clara Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EDragnDean wrote:
Nor_AL_67 wrote:
Nice write up should be sticky material. Is the place that blasted/powder- coated local or did you send them off?


Local. Ken's Powder Coat in Puyallup WA. I've had work done by Awesome Powder Coat (advertiser) before as well, but needed a color match so wanted to see the color samples first hand.

That's a great place.
This stuff got done by Ken:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/429119.jpg
and I've had bus wheels done there too.
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darkburst
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

campingbox wrote:


I've assembled original paint popout frames and they have always beed a press fit. I don't think the stress on the screws is a problem.....it's just that the rubber itself needs to compress to get a tight seal.


The windows are a water tight fit obviously. Spray the rubber with silicone and slide together, at most I will use a thick black rubber bungee to hold the frames from slightly sliding apart when installing the screws.
You should not need a large set of cabinet clamps to bring them together. Besides it is obvious the powder coating is too thick when he is having to take a razor blade and trim it away in areas which absolutely defeats the purpose of powdercoating the frames in the first place the heavy protection.

Spray a light metal etch primer wash then paint with REAL paint. not rattle cans. You will be happy as a clam and I gurantee they will last as long as anything powder coated anyhow.
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campingbox Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

darkburst wrote:
campingbox wrote:


I've assembled original paint popout frames and they have always beed a press fit. I don't think the stress on the screws is a problem.....it's just that the rubber itself needs to compress to get a tight seal.


The windows are a water tight fit obviously. Spray the rubber with silicone and slide together, at most I will use a thick black rubber bungee to hold the frames from slightly sliding apart when installing the screws.
You should not need a large set of cabinet clamps to bring them together. Besides it is obvious the powder coating is too thick when he is having to take a razor blade and trim it away in areas which absolutely defeats the purpose of powdercoating the frames in the first place the heavy protection.

Spray a light metal etch primer wash then paint with REAL paint. not rattle cans. You will be happy as a clam and I gurantee they will last as long as anything powder coated anyhow.


I have never used any clamps, I've always done them by hand but they have been a pretty tight fit. I've used silicone spray and glyserine and have been happy with the results.

Another tip is to be certain to stretch the rubber at the corners leaving it slack on the straight areas.....this will keep the corners from bunching up and poking out. You want them to look even all the way around.
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EDragnDean
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few answers... Nearly all the frames that were rusted, were rusted along the bottom edge, under the seal, and specifically where the joint and screws are. It appears to me that the outside seal fails, and water sits under the seal and rusts from the inside out.

All frames were assembled, including screwing without clamps prior to installing glass and seals. With glass and seals in place, I found the clamping system (mentioned here on Samba by other members first) an easy way to press the seals. I did not have to apply massive pressure.

I did have to trim the coat at the tabs, potentially this could become a rust location later, however it is on the inside of the frame, and I would need to have a window seal fail. Should I restore another set of windows, I think I would trim down the tabs slightly before powder coating...

Paint would be easier for assembly, and more correct for a stock restoration. The steps would be the same, I chose powder coat. Should any issues, rust, seals, etc develop, I will be sure and share.
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EDragnDean
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A tip on installing Pop outs with seals.

Silicone spray.

After struggling with installing the first popout, I thought there has got to be an easier way than pressing at an angle while trying to line up the screws with the hinges. After some thought, it occurred to me to push the window into the opening, and then screw it to the hinges. YOU MUST LUBE WITH SILICONE SPRAY HEAVILY! Spray the opening and the rubber, carefully press the window in, don't drop the slippery sucker, and screw to the hinge. I found this much easier, faster, and the rubber seal fits better.
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Eric, Paris
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice job, could you also tell the outer frame seal side? flat facing in or out?
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Dave24
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

darkburst wrote:
One tip...DON"T powder coat!

It is too thick and you can see all the trouble it creates.
I restored my frames and just painted them. They slid
together easy as pie and no need for the contraption
to squeeze them together. Think of all that stress on
those little screws now as well... Rolling Eyes

The bad outweighs the good when you powder coat.
Laughing BS. I powdercoated, then scuffed and sprayed with glasurit line 22 s/s in b/w. tThere was no fitment problems. NONE. Confused
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EDragnDean
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric, Paris wrote:
Nice job, could you also tell the outer frame seal side? flat facing in or out?


If I understand the question... flat side out. There is a little lip which goes along the outside edge. The seal needs to seat in from the exterior. Hope that makes sense.
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Frisbee
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for shearing this this! this will help me alot in my pop out restorations.. i had no clue what to do with them. mine are pretty pitted but i think i might be able to blast them smooth. hopefully mine will come out looken as good as yours.

Thanks! Very Happy
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