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Deck height tool placement
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1975 Kombi
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:30 pm    Post subject: Deck height tool placement Reply with quote

OK I ordered my deck height tool and now I see that it only tightens on two of the studs. I think this is correct but I am not sure. Has anyone used one of these. '83 2.0L
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The pistons are a sliver under the deck height. Once I figure this out I will measure the distance. I thought that all four studs had to be tightened. Here is the Cip1 link. http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D7090
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1975 Kombi
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just pushing down with my hand I get a rough deck height of .0070.
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rcnotes
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For best results try to check the deck heights two places across (perpendicular) the wrist pin for each P&C.

I did this several times until I got reproducible results for each P&C. Take your time. I have some pics in my gallery on how I measured deck heights.


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Romy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had gotten that deck height tool too, and it seems that it's for a type 1 engine. You can measure the deck height without it by clamping down the cylinders (1/2" drive sockets work) and using a straight edge. A dial gauge is cheap enough, or if you have calipers (and a feeler to back your measurements) that will work too.
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rcnotes
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used a couple of pieces of 1" square steel tube that I drilled to fit over the head studs. Using shims and spacers I tightened the square tubes on top of the cylinder to hold it in place against the crankcase.

Using the setup in that picture I secured the dial indicator and placed the stem on top of a straightedge (thick straight metal that won't easily bend) positioned on the top of the cylinder, then zero out the dial for one measurement, then without moving the position of the dial indicator, lift the stem of the indicator, remove the straightedge, lower the stem and measure to the top of the piston (the piston must be at the top of its stroke!). Subtracting the thickness of the straightedge from total of the two measurements should give you the deck height for that P&C.

Repeat the process for that P&C taking two measurements perpendicular across the wrist pin
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1975 Kombi
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I had to play with it but it might be secure enough now to get a reading.
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1975 Kombi
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it normal to have a .007 without any base shims. There is virtually no gap. I will try a couple of things in the morning. Anyone have a rough gap size that I should have???????
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Romy
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The deck height varies from cylinder to cylinder. In order to accurately set up your compression ratio, you need to know not only the deck height but the piston dish volume and head chamber volume. .007 sounds ok, but a bit tight to me. I've usually seen about .02ish with no gaskets or base shims. CC'ing your heads and pistons isn't too hard, so make sure you do that in order to correctly set up your compression ratio.

Very Happy
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1975 Kombi
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do I worry about the piston top volume. The heads are 53CC. I can do it just never thought it was used. Maybe I am thinking of flat top pistons.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Measuring the volume of the combustion chamber. The big syringe didn't work very well. I found a plastic graduated pipette instead. USse the same technique for doing the piston dish. https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/347365.jpg
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rcnotes
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC, Tom Wilson mentions in his book that your looking for about .040" for a safe deck height. Use shims if you need them.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't intend to rev it very high, .025 is about as tight as you can go. This is the deck height you measure plus any step in the head (or plus the head gasket thickness if you use one). If you intend on going for maximum revs then .040 would be safer.

Personally I don't think you will get a very accurate measurement with only one stud holding the cylinder down as you show, every thing is apt to be cattywompus. Get a piece of 1 or 1 1/4" square tubing with two holes in it that will align with studs on opposite sides of the cylinder, this should get you within a couple of thousandths.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1975 Kombi, the set-up you have in your third picture using two studs should work but I would recommend torquing the two studs to insure the cylinder is flat against the case and maybe check around the base of the cylinder with a feeler gauge. The amount of torque would not be important maybe 8-10ftlbs on each studs.

I like to use a similar method when setting up my engines, here are a few photo's of my homemade tools for holding the cylinder in place while checking TDC and deck height.

These are my cylinder holdown clamps, the ones with the dial indicators attached are type IV and the others are type I
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This set-up is just finding TDC
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is using a depth mic to find deck height while the piston is at TDC, I actually take the deck height measurment at what would be the top and bottom of the cylinder not where the depth mic is located in the picture. I usually set my deck at .045

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't set deck height to some predetermined number. Measure your piston dish CC's, your head CC's and then your deck height (from which you can compute your deck height volume in CC's). From this (along with the stroke volume) you can compute your compression ratio for each individual cylinder. Do this for all four cylinders as they will not all be the same.

Or you can take the book recommendation to set deck height at some predetermined spec and wing it. I did that initially and had 4 very different compression ratios on my cylinders.

If it matters to you to have similar CRs on all cylinders, do it the correct way for each cylinder. You can adjust the CR for each cylinder by adding shims. It's not too much more time and it's worth the extra effort.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting this useful thread, Kombi.
Nice tools whip618. Looks like something an Auxilliaryman would do. Cool Quiet night on below decks watch? Laughing
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1975 Kombi
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Junk2Funk wrote:
Don't set deck height to some predetermined number. Measure your piston dish CC's, your head CC's and then your deck height (from which you can compute your deck height volume in CC's). From this (along with the stroke volume) you can compute your compression ratio for each individual cylinder. Do this for all four cylinders as they will not all be the same.

Or you can take the book recommendation to set deck height at some predetermined spec and wing it. I did that initially and had 4 very different compression ratios on my cylinders.

If it matters to you to have similar CRs on all cylinders, do it the correct way for each cylinder. You can adjust the CR for each cylinder by adding shims. It's not too much more time and it's worth the extra effort.


Just working through some logic here. The 1-2 bank has to have the same base to deck height on both cylinders so the head sits flush. The same goes for the 3-4 bank. Now the Compression ratio comes into play. Both the 1-2 bank and the 3-4 bank have to be equal in compression to balance the banks. Now in a perfect world the 1-2 bank deck height will equal the 3-4 bank deck height.
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Last edited by 1975 Kombi on Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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1975 Kombi
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

whip618 wrote:
1975 Kombi, the set-up you have in your third picture using two studs should work but I would recommend torquing the two studs to insure the cylinder is flat against the case and maybe check around the base of the cylinder with a feeler gauge. The amount of torque would not be important maybe 8-10ftlbs on each studs.

I like to use a similar method when setting up my engines, here are a few photo's of my homemade tools for holding the cylinder in place while checking TDC and deck height.

These are my cylinder holdown clamps, the ones with the dial indicators attached are type IV and the others are type I
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This set-up is just finding TDC
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is using a depth mic to find deck height while the piston is at TDC, I actually take the deck height measurment at what would be the top and bottom of the cylinder not where the depth mic is located in the picture. I usually set my deck at .045

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I have to go on record and say that I am amazed at your setup. Very rarely to I say wow about things but SHAM WOW. Very nice work. Those things should be hanging on the wall. Take down the dogs playing poker.

Could you just take a feeler gauge or vernier calipers and use it on your top dead center unit to calculate deck height. Is it a straight enough edge on that aluminum bar.
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Romy
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1975 Kombi wrote:
Now in a perfect world the 1-2 bank deck height will equal the 3-4 bank deck height.


That's what I had thought originally too, but it turned out to be not quite true. If I had just measured the deck height on one side and assumed the other side to be the same, I would have ended up with a comp of roughly 7.25 on one side and 7.55 on the other. That's why I was saying to just go through and measure each one individually. This happened to me on two different engine builds and is due to small variances in the parts which can add up. It's worth it to just take your time and go through it all. And if you can get your hands on a deck height tool like that nice set pictured above, that would make it all easier!
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1975 Kombi wrote:

Could you just take a feeler gauge or vernier calipers and use it on your top dead center unit to calculate deck height. Is it a straight enough edge on that aluminum bar.


A feeler gauge would work fine with your set-up just be sure the piston is at TDC. A dial caliper or vernier caliper would be a good choice as well but be sure to zero the dial for using it as a depth measuring tool.

The aluminum bar on my holdowns has been machined square and flat to within .0002 so it's accurate enough for checking deck and TDC.

Phil
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK my piston depression is 15CC. So that gives me a total of 52CC+15CC=67CC for my combustion chamber size.
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