brake pedal to the floor... in one day. help?

[TheBlueTurtle]

so yesterday i noticed my brake pedal needed to be pushed a little too far down. but i thought nothing of it.

today.. when i get back from work. ( i ride the train_) i go to drive my van home. and the pedal can now be pressed TO THE FLOOR with little braking power... good think its a stick.

first thought is master cylinder.. some kind of hydraulic something rather? brake fluid?


am i correct in that assumption or is this a break pad thing.. didnt feel like it.

ideas?

im broke as a female hooker in the castro district... and i have a trip planned this wknd.. what kinda quick fix can id o? or this is a mechanic job.


thanks.
_________________
84 Westfalia (Goldie)
GoWesty 2.2

[mightyart]

It's a brake fluid thing, most likely a leak somewhere, did you check the level in the reservoir?

[Christopher Schimke]

Have you checked the fluid level? If the fluid level is still good, you can bet on it being the master cylinder. If the fluid is low, it could be a leak anywhere in the system. You will have to look for evidence of the leak at the most likely spots first- reservoir itself, front calipers, rear wheel cylinders, etc. Check all of your brake hoses next and finally check your hard brake lines.
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[dr. no]

Hydraulic, definitely. Sudden loss in all wheels would most likely be the master cylinder, but also consider just being out of fluid, vacuum assist (either the thing itself or the connection to the manifold after the one-way valve [unless it started running bad too from the vacuum leak]), or one wheel cylinder failing so bad that there's just no juice left for any of them. Failing cyliders (mastor or wheel) often leak and tell you where it is, but not always. Start by checking the reservoir, if full look for drips under the steering wheel or at the wheels, if clean check the vacuum lines. If all these are good I would still consider replacing the master to be the next step. How long? -- How good are you? Could be two minutes to reconnect a vacuum line, or somewhat longer to change the rear wheel cylinders (please do both if you do). If the cylinders are original or you don't know, I would think about changing them all at once.
_________________
Scott
http://lungehphoto.com

'83.5 Westy s/p 1.6td JX and 4sp DK transplant--wonderful!
'86 MB 300GD
'06 MB Sprinter
'17 BMW X1
'89 Isuzu Trooper


PAST VWs:
'82 NA diesel Vanagon
'86 7-passenger Vanagon
'77 Bay
'71 Bay
'74 Things (2)
'69 Karmann Ghia (the only one I miss--in nice weather, anyway...)
'91 Fox

[TheBlueTurtle]

going to check the fluid now. thanks guys.

brb in 15
_________________
84 Westfalia (Goldie)
GoWesty 2.2

[TheBlueTurtle]

brake fluid is the canister back right on the engine yea? with the slotted mouth. .. dark brown/red


yes its full.




master cylinder?
_________________
84 Westfalia (Goldie)
GoWesty 2.2

[mightyart]

[dr. no]

Uh, no, it's above the speedometer (on top of the master cylinder, which is always attached to the brake pedal). Feel the front of the instrument cluster cover (toward the windshield), there are two indentations, put your fingers in them and pull toward you, it will pop free. All will be evident.
_________________
Scott
http://lungehphoto.com

'83.5 Westy s/p 1.6td JX and 4sp DK transplant--wonderful!
'86 MB 300GD
'06 MB Sprinter
'17 BMW X1
'89 Isuzu Trooper


PAST VWs:
'82 NA diesel Vanagon
'86 7-passenger Vanagon
'77 Bay
'71 Bay
'74 Things (2)
'69 Karmann Ghia (the only one I miss--in nice weather, anyway...)
'91 Fox

[mightyart]

Stops copies me!

[TheBlueTurtle]

OMFG WTF


brb.

_________________
84 Westfalia (Goldie)
GoWesty 2.2

[mightyart]

[TheBlueTurtle]

ok so it was bone dry.. i filled it all the way up. it took a whole bottle


but it didnt change the brakes... i pumped and drove around the block..

do i have to prime it some how?
_________________
84 Westfalia (Goldie)
GoWesty 2.2

[?Waldo?]

First order of business is to find out where the fluid went and likely is still going. The system won't lose fluid unless there is a leak. Likely suspects would be the rear wheel cylinders, front calipers or fittings/hoses. Also, the clutch is hydraulic and shares the same reservoir and so you should check to see if the carpet under the pedals is absorbing fluid that is leaking from the clutch master or the hose from the reservoir. Also check the clutch slave cylinder. If there is no leak anywhere, then the master cylinder leaking into the booster is a possibility.

Also, once the fluid level drops to the point that air can enter the master cylinder, then the entire brake system needs to be bled of air. You won't get the pedal back until then.

Andrew

[TheBlueTurtle]

[bucko]

Bleeding can be done at home, but it will require a partner, at the very least. There are several tricks and even tools to make it easier. I'm guessing by your questions you do not have a brake bleeding kit, so here's what you can try. First go to the rear wheels and find the small bleed valve. For the rear drum brakes, it is located at the top center of the backing plate. Here's where Bentley manuals pay off in big ways; you'd be reading about this by now and looking at the pictures, rather than trying to emagine my text in your head. For the front disk brakes, there will also be a bleader screw. Now here's a problem in most cases; these bleader screws can be rusted shut, and difficult to break loose the first time. I suggest you spray them with some penetrating oil (PB Blaster is good), and let it soak for a couple of hours. Then use a good quality box end, 6 sides wrench to break them loose; don't use cheap tools here, as you'll round off the heads. If you are successful in getting the bleed screws to break loose, close each one. Now starting with the right rear wheel (passenger side rear), have your partner pump the brake pedal several times (do not run the engine for this!!!), then tell him to continue pressing the pedal; you turn the bleeder screw; brake fluid will squirt out and his foot still pushing on the brake pedal, will sink down to the floor. Close the bleed screw, and repeat 2 to three times at the same wheel. Using a hose on the bleader screw and pointing that into a jar as you open the bleeder helps keep the brake fluid mess to a minimum. Move to the drivers side rear, and repeat the same. Then move to the passenger side front. then last, the drivers side front. You should have a decent brake pedal firmness when this proceedure is done.

However, doing this proceedure without first finding the leak is just plain a waste of time, and putting yourself and others in great danger should you continue driving the vehicle.
_________________
Current VW drives: 1984 Westfalia

Past VW drives: 1967 Beetle, 1973 Beetle, 1977 Bus, 1971 Military Type 181

[TheBlueTurtle]

[wasserbox]

[mightyart]

This is probably what has happened, since you don't see any visible leaks, and I think it's a safe bet to say you've never checked the fluid level.
Your van could be leaking from a few small places, and it might have been doing it for quite a while.
What you REALLY need to do is take the rear drums off and look for what was mentioned above.
Your master might be leaking into the booster, then you need to change both.
What happened is the res has been getting lower and lower as you used the brakes and they sucked more fluid out, till there was no more fluid and it sucked in air.
Brakes are hydrolic and a fluid doesn't compress as much as gas.
You need to BLEED the air out of the lines like was mentioned above, and replace it with fluid.
You may get lucky and get the pedal back, but you have a problem and need to fix it.

[bmwmango]

Blue Turtle,

You won't hurt your brake system by test driving your van, but you might damage your van if you can't stop.

Fill up your master cylinder, replace the cap and have someone pump up the brakes. This will aid you in locating the leaks.

Check your master cylinder, rear wheel cylinders and front wheel calipers for leakage. If no sign there, then trace the brake lines (about 1/4 steel tubing) from each wheel up to the master cylinder.

Repair the leak then bleed the system. Don't forget PB Blaster on the bleeders. I'd blast them a couple of times so that it soaks in. You don't want to strip these or else you've added another project to your list.

Also, take care not to get brake fluid on any painted surface. They don't stay painted very long.

Good luck
_________________
1990 Westy converted to a Syncro Westy
2009 BMW R1200GS
1990 BMW K75
1986 BMW K75 Parts (Deer 1, Beemer 0)

[dr. no]

If it's a slow leak you can fill and bleed the system and drive it while you check it out. But you have to bleed it or the lines will still be full of air and it will not stop very well. Plenty o' posts here about how to bleed, too.
_________________
Scott
http://lungehphoto.com

'83.5 Westy s/p 1.6td JX and 4sp DK transplant--wonderful!
'86 MB 300GD
'06 MB Sprinter
'17 BMW X1
'89 Isuzu Trooper


PAST VWs:
'82 NA diesel Vanagon
'86 7-passenger Vanagon
'77 Bay
'71 Bay
'74 Things (2)
'69 Karmann Ghia (the only one I miss--in nice weather, anyway...)
'91 Fox