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bucko
Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2004
Posts: 2617
Location: Coppell, Texas
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 Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:34 am Post subject: |
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"You won't hurt your brake system by test driving your van, but you might damage your van if you can't stop."
Not to mention some inocent others that are sharing the road with you. The above statement is true, but we need to notify theblueturtle that he is over his head on this brake issue. He's a good guy, asking for help, and seems to want to learn about his vanagon; all good things.
Just recently, a person in my home neighborhood test drove his vehicle, and struck a yong child riding her bike. He told the police officer he replaced some brake lines and was "testing" his work. His test failed, and the little girl is now in a full leg cast. She's lucky, as she will fully recover. My wife read me this article because she knows that I've always worked on one car or another over the last 25 years or so".
If you don't know what your doing, by all means, ask questions. if you don't have repair manuals, if you don't have a decent set of tools, then be honest with yourself and get the vehicle towed to a shop and get it done right. Stop driving the vehicle!
Sorry if this come across harsh. It's meant to. I know this little girl. I know her parents. She did not deserve what she got, due to some unqualified, unequipped neighbor that tried to repair something that was over his head.
I feel I'm a decent mechanic, and own a good set of tools. However, I also know my limits, as well as what my neighbors will tolerate in the way of repairs. In reading the posts of theblueturtle I read these statements:
"brake fluid is the canister back right on the engine yea? with the slotted mouth. .. dark brown/red?"
and
"ok so it was bone dry.. i filled it all the way up. it took a whole bottle
but it didnt change the brakes... i pumped and drove around the block..
do i have to prime it some how?"
and
"well.. the carpet isnt wet.. but i dont really understand where else exactly to look for leaks.
you sure it wont loose fluid.. like evaporate? i mean.. ive driven it for over a year and never checked it.. and its got 240k miles on...
can i just checke the fluid level to see if its leaking? after driving it around the block..
also. am i doing ne damage to it driving it around the blocks testing? i drove it abouta mile down the street today to the bus stop and parked it. i will be driving it home after work.. i drive slow and use 2nd to slow down allot ne ways. soo but it DOES stop if i press all the way."
These are strong indications that he should not be working on the brakes by himself. All these questions are not a bad thing; we all have to learn by asking at one time or another. It does however identify the limits that we take on.
Please get some help to do the work, or at the very least, take it to a shop. Take on the other repairs, but leave the brakes to someone else.
_________________
Current VW drives: 1984 Westfalia
Past VW drives: 1967 Beetle, 1973 Beetle, 1977 Bus, 1971 Military Type 181 |
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Terry Kay
Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:16 am Post subject: |
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<>[quote="loogy"]
Starting at the beginning, brakes do not actually stop the vehicle, tires do!
It's the friction between the tires and the road surface that do the actual stopping. <>
Don't worry about nothin'
As reported just a day or two ago--you don't need any brakes--
"It's the friction between the pavement and your hoops that do all of the actual stoppin' "
Boy, I didn't know that---
You learn something every day here 
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T.K. |
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Volksaholic
Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2005
Posts: 1771
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| bucko wrote: |
These are strong indications that he should not be working on the brakes by himself. All these questions are not a bad thing; we all have to learn by asking at one time or another. It does however identify the limits that we take on.
Please get some help to do the work, or at the very least, take it to a shop. Take on the other repairs, but leave the brakes to someone else. |
This is pretty much exactly what I was thinking as I read this yesterday... get some assistance from someone who has done this stuff before, or just pay to have the work done. Brakes are too important to be left to guesswork. I know you said you're broke... but that's not an excuse for driving a car without proper safety equipment. Borrow some money from family or friends, take an evening job to earn enough cash to do it right.
If you want to learn, maybe you could find a pro that would allow you to assist them while he/she does the job. Or see if the local high school or community college has an auto repair class where you will have access to their shop, tools, and tutelage.
It would be different if this were a pre-67 Bug or Bus too. Those brakes were so simple that the learning curve was relatively flat. Besides, early VWs were lighter and the brakes barely worked on the best of days so there wasn't a huge difference between properly maintained brakes and a complete loss of brake fluid!  I jest, but I had a couple really scary rides when I lost the brakes in my '58 Westy and '62 Bug... I don't want to think about having that happen in something as tall and heavy as a Vanagon. Luckily, in my case, the strategic use of shrubbery averted disasters in those three cases (one of which was caused by a "professional" mechanic, BTW).
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1988 Wolfsburg Edition, 2001 Subaru EJ251 |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| Terry Kay wrote: |
| loogy wrote: |
Starting at the beginning, brakes do not actually stop the vehicle, tires do!
It's the friction between the tires and the road surface that do the actual stopping. <> |
Don't worry about nothin'
As reported just a day or two ago--you don't need any brakes--
"It's the friction between the pavement and your hoops that do all of the actual stoppin' "
Boy, I didn't know that---
You learn something every day here |
Your a real piece of work Terry!
Just in case anyone is wondering why I said that and wishes to see how out of context Terry hoped to make that statement -
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=319303
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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Volksaholic
Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2005
Posts: 1771
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:45 am Post subject: |
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That was a great writeup, Loogy. I think Terry missed the important parts.
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1988 Wolfsburg Edition, 2001 Subaru EJ251 |
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TheBlueTurtle
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2007
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:07 am Post subject: |
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well. thanks for the vote of confidence.
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84 Westfalia (Goldie)
GoWesty 2.2 |
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TheBlueTurtle
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2007
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: |
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and yet somehow. fuel lines are less dangerous and less of a threat to change .. then bleeding the brakes?
thats makes little to no sense to me.. but perhaps that is because. as so eloquently put. i dont know what the fuck im doing ..
appreciate the concern.. really... i do.
but i dont think my general knowledge of parts or whereabouts of these parts...has any bearing on my ability to execute a mechanical task that has few steps. and instructions to boot.
so here's what im going to do. and maybe ill even take some pictures.
bleed my brakes! as some friendly members have laid out easy to follow instructions. it appears to be a fairly easy task to undertake.
if after i do this.. or fail, as some of you might have it.. i will check the status of my break pedal.. and of course if it is till not working properly. i will have exhausted all my reasonable abilities to fix it.. and will bring it to a shop.
i have no ego involved in this , and would gladly hang up my hat for things well out of my reach.. this however. does not seem to be one of those things.
and sometimes fella's picking up an extra job or borrowing money from friends. is not an option. and the only thin left. is to try your hardest to safely fix it yourself.. if after i have done everything i can.. i will of course have to bite the bullet and short the rent. to fix the brakes.
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84 Westfalia (Goldie)
GoWesty 2.2 |
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TheBlueTurtle
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Joined: July 03, 2007
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: |
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oh and ps. i do have a full set of tools.
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84 Westfalia (Goldie)
GoWesty 2.2 |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: |
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I'm sure no one was trying to belittle you but rather save you and anyone else on the road near you some potential pain and heartache.
Yes, I would consider diagnosing and fixing the brakes to be both more difficult and result in more potential danger than replacing the fuel lines. Actually considerably. There are also more tools and significantly more technical and mechanical skill required.
Andrew
Last edited by ?Waldo? on Thu Sep 25, 2008 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Volksaholic
Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2005
Posts: 1771
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah, USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| TheBlueTurtle wrote: |
| and sometimes fella's picking up an extra job or borrowing money from friends. is not an option. and the only thin left. is to try your hardest to safely fix it yourself.. if after i have done everything i can.. i will of course have to bite the bullet and short the rent. to fix the brakes. |
Sorry if I offended... it just sounds like you're very unfamiliar with brakes and they're a really cool thing to have working properly! It was really meant as a friendly suggestion rather than an insult. You're right that bleeding the brakes isn't rocket science. The bigger question is where did the brake fluid go in the first place, and is it going to leave the system again when you really need it. As you crawl around under the van to do the brake bleed, and before you loosen the bleeder valves, check for brake fluid around the calipers/cylinders, bleeder valves, and rubber brake lines.
Check the rubber lines to see if they show signs of age.... they don't need to be broken or leaking to be a problem (although leaking is obviously a problem!), they can swell inside and restrict the flow of brake fluid. As a matter of course I do the rubber hoses when I start working on the brakes on any vehicle where I don't know for sure it's been done in the last few years. I use rubber lines, but some folks swear by the steel braided lines. I'm sure they're better... but they're kinda pricey.
I think it was mentioned above... but make sure you adjust the drum brakes (slop there can make the whole system suck) and bleed the clutch slave cylinder (check it for leaks while you're in there).
If you can afford the time and have a second set of wheels it wouldn't hurt to pull the drums and rotors had have them checked to make sure they're within the wear limits. Check the pads and shoes as well. If I don't think the rotors or drums need to be turned I do them myself, but if they do I will sometimes pay someone to do the brake job so I'm not running back and forth to have them turned... I'm not set up do turn them myself (how many folks are?).
Good luck... keep asking questions if things don't look right to you or if you run into problems, and take it really easy on your test drive until you're sure they're up to snuff!
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1988 Wolfsburg Edition, 2001 Subaru EJ251 |
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wasserbox
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Joined: April 08, 2008
Posts: 533
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| TheBlueTurtle wrote: |
| and yet somehow. fuel lines are less dangerous and less of a threat to change .. then bleeding the brakes? |
Yep
Just don't forget where the E-Brake handle is located
You shouldn't actually need to move your van at all to pressurize and test your brakes. If they don't feel firm when you're parked in the driveway, they aren't going to get better 5 miles down the road.
It's a tedious job - especially the first time. And as others have stated - things just don't "go wrong for no reason". Somewhere fluid is escaping your braking system, or air is getting into it. Jumping straight to bleeding before repairing that is just buying time. |
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TheBlueTurtle
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2007
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| wasserbox wrote: |
| TheBlueTurtle wrote: |
| and yet somehow. fuel lines are less dangerous and less of a threat to change .. then bleeding the brakes? |
Yep
Just don't forget where the E-Brake handle is located
You shouldn't actually need to move your van at all to pressurize and test your brakes. If they don't feel firm when you're parked in the driveway, they aren't going to get better 5 miles down the road.
It's a tedious job - especially the first time. And as others have stated - things just don't "go wrong for no reason". Somewhere fluid is escaping your braking system, or air is getting into it. Jumping straight to bleeding before repairing that is just buying time. |
ahh..
you see. good advice is well respected and followed.
is it REALLy that much of a hassle.. if it buys me another 2 weeks untill i get paid again?
i mean it sounds like the whole thing will take about .. 1-2 hours.. right?
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84 Westfalia (Goldie)
GoWesty 2.2 |
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TheBlueTurtle
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2007
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Andrew A. Libby wrote: |
I'm sure no one was trying to belittle you but rather save you and anyone else on the road near you some potential pain and heartache.
Yes, I would consider diagnosing and fixing the brakes to be both more difficult and result in more potential danger than replacing the fuel lines. Actually considerably. There are also more tools and significantly more technical and mechanical skill required.
Andrew |
ahh.. this wasn't apparent from the original how-to's on bleeding the breaks.. for the most part at first EVERYTHING seems easy to fix on a vw.. at least according to most of you pros;
then perhaps i aught to hang my hat after all.
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84 Westfalia (Goldie)
GoWesty 2.2 |
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TheBlueTurtle
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2007
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Volksaholic wrote: |
| TheBlueTurtle wrote: |
| and sometimes fella's picking up an extra job or borrowing money from friends. is not an option. and the only thin left. is to try your hardest to safely fix it yourself.. if after i have done everything i can.. i will of course have to bite the bullet and short the rent. to fix the brakes. |
Sorry if I offended... it just sounds like you're very unfamiliar with brakes and they're a really cool thing to have working properly! It was really meant as a friendly suggestion rather than an insult. You're right that bleeding the brakes isn't rocket science. The bigger question is where did the brake fluid go in the first place, and is it going to leave the system again when you really need it. As you crawl around under the van to do the brake bleed, and before you loosen the bleeder valves, check for brake fluid around the calipers/cylinders, bleeder valves, and rubber brake lines.
Check the rubber lines to see if they show signs of age.... they don't need to be broken or leaking to be a problem (although leaking is obviously a problem!), they can swell inside and restrict the flow of brake fluid. As a matter of course I do the rubber hoses when I start working on the brakes on any vehicle where I don't know for sure it's been done in the last few years. I use rubber lines, but some folks swear by the steel braided lines. I'm sure they're better... but they're kinda pricey.
I think it was mentioned above... but make sure you adjust the drum brakes (slop there can make the whole system suck) and bleed the clutch slave cylinder (check it for leaks while you're in there).
If you can afford the time and have a second set of wheels it wouldn't hurt to pull the drums and rotors had have them checked to make sure they're within the wear limits. Check the pads and shoes as well. If I don't think the rotors or drums need to be turned I do them myself, but if they do I will sometimes pay someone to do the brake job so I'm not running back and forth to have them turned... I'm not set up do turn them myself (how many folks are?).
Good luck... keep asking questions if things don't look right to you or if you run into problems, and take it really easy on your test drive until you're sure they're up to snuff! |
thank you. im a Cancer.. and moody. so sorry if i snapped back.
actually checking the brakes themselves.. never even entered my mind.. and if thats really what it takes. and it snot a simple unplug the drain thing.. then yeah. it seems as tho i will have to bring to my shop.
thanks again. no hard feelings. im just pissed off.
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84 Westfalia (Goldie)
GoWesty 2.2 |
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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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| Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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Aside from requiring two people or a single person bleeder of one design or another, bleeding the brakes isn't all that big of a deal. Probably similar to the task of replacing the fuel lines. More of an issue is finding the leak and replacing the part.
Andrew |
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bucko
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Joined: December 09, 2004
Posts: 2617
Location: Coppell, Texas
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: |
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I'll chime in one last time and mention I was only looking out in your behalf, as well as those around you. Here's the problem your missing; you still have a leak somewhere. Your brake resevior was empty (you said). There are only two areas in the Vanagon that can drain this; the clutch system, and the brakes. If it's clutch system, two places to check. One is the master clutch cylinder, located against the firewall behind the steering wheel, about half way down. You checked that and stated that the carpet was dry (if this part was leaking, the carpet is usually wet/stained with brake fluid). The second part to clutch hydralics would be the slave cylinder, located in the rear. Opening the engine lid, looking at the left (drivers side) towards the rear mounted on a bracket , on the transaxle would net you a view of this.
Moving on to brakes. The rear wheels still use drum brakes (assuming it is a stock setup), and therefore there are wheel cylinders. A slow leak from a wheel cylinder is difficult to identify. Removal of the rear wheel, then the rear drum to inspect is your best bet; it provides the condition of that wheel's brake parts. If a wheel cylinder is leaking, it's contaminating the brake shoes, requiring replacement of those as well.
The two front wheels are a disc setup. Easier to inspect by mearly removing the front wheels.
If your brake master cylinder is leaking into the power brake booster, you'll never "visually" see this leak, but rather will notice the fluid level dropping, assuming you check it more than once a year....
And then there are the flex brake lines between the frame rails and wheels. The rubber inside gets old and swells, eliminating good fluid pressure "flow" to the wheel cylinders or calipers.
Remember, this is a 20 plus year old vehicle. Chances are that the majority of the brake parts are "original", and need replacement.
Bleeding the brakes without a complete inspection/replacement of failed parts will only net you a temporary brake pedal. Problem is, the slow failure you have now will only escalate into a bad catistrophic one at the worst moment. And as I stated in my previous post, that can include an innocent bystander.
Please have the brake system inspected by someone else. No one here is against you at all. Just trying to help you. Glad to see your pissed. That indicates you have found your limitations with this brake problem. We all experience that by the way. Your not alone.
P.S. Add to your collection of good tools: A Bentley. Great source to learn how the mechanicals work on your Vanagon. Or visit DOGPILOTS site. He has PDF files you can download on Vanagon repair manuals.
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Current VW drives: 1984 Westfalia
Past VW drives: 1967 Beetle, 1973 Beetle, 1977 Bus, 1971 Military Type 181 |
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foodeater
Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2007
Posts: 1318
Location: Newburgh, NY
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:49 am Post subject: |
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I had a slow leak from one of the rear wheel cylinders, that I put off repairing for a while by simply refilling the brake fluid reservoir for a few weeks. then I let the van sit for about a week while I went on vacation (in a Yaris  , but I wasnt about to drive the westy 500 miles with questionable brakes) when I came back I went to move the van to replace the wheel cylinder, and the pedal went right to the floor, and the brake fluid came pouring out the bottom of the drum. If that had happened while driving it would have been catastrophic. Driving with a brake system that leaks is driving on borrowed time.
Also if you dont have a Bentley manual yet, GET ONE!!!! and soon.
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89 Bluestar-2.5 Subaru Powered-RIP
'84 Westy Tiico-daily driver-sold
'82 Caddy diesel-sold
'87 Vanagon Syncro-RIP
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TheBlueTurtle
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Joined: July 03, 2007
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:45 am Post subject: |
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yea yea.. i got it i got it. thanks bucko..
going to the mechanics tomorrow.
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84 Westfalia (Goldie)
GoWesty 2.2 |
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dr. no
Samba Member
Joined: August 06, 2004
Posts: 578
Location: Santa Fe
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| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Going fast is optional; stopping is not.
I've restored 6 VWs, everytime the brakes come first, way before there's even an engine in site. I wouldn't say any of this is beyond basic skills, but it does take concentration, concern and committment not to drive it till you're certain it's right.
That said, it's also a good time to replace the wheel bearings... 
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Scott
http://lungehphoto.com
'83.5 Westy s/p 1.6td JX and 4sp DK transplant--wonderful!
'86 MB 300GD
'06 MB Sprinter
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PAST VWs:
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'77 Bay
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'74 Things (2)
'69 Karmann Ghia (the only one I miss--in nice weather, anyway...)
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TheBlueTurtle
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Joined: July 03, 2007
Posts: 353
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Hey guys. i kind of left this thread after the undesirable responses i got..
but after being prodded by another member. i figured a follow up post would be helpful.
I bled the breaks myself. with no partner. granted i my breaks never returned to 100%.. they came back to about 80%. and have been working ok thus far. under heavy load or on steep hills. my pedal still goes to the floor in order to keep it stopped. not the safest idea i KNOW... BUT it works for now.
the breaks have not deteriorated much more since then. I will of course have my mechanic service them as soon as i can. but for now. this will have to do.
just wanted to let you all know..
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84 Westfalia (Goldie)
GoWesty 2.2 |
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