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bon2198
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:47 am    Post subject: End Play Reply with quote

going to be changing the front seal. how do you check end play and adjust if needed?
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1970 VW Beetle 1776cc MOFOCO w/hydraulic lifters, 042 heads and dual dellorto's
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need a dial indicator or a tool like this and a feeler gauge.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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bon2198
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, i've order the tool pictured in the top pic. now what?
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69 bugin
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well your going to need alot of help from glenn
i havent tried that yet but im willen to give it a shot
it does look hard Laughing
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neil68
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:42 pm    Post subject: End play tool Reply with quote

It's fairly simple. Just give the rear pulley bolt some firm taps with a hammer, using a block of wood for protection. Then install your SP Tool on the top right case hole (if using an engine stand) and snug the set screw down to the face of the flywheel edge.

Then take your block of wood to the gland nut and firmly tap it the other way. This should demonstrate the end play. Then get your feeler gauge set and start checking...start with a 0.003" feeler and work your way up.

0.006" is the acceptable wear limit and 0.0027" is the minimum recommended (up to 0.005").

Good luck!
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bon2198
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:10 am    Post subject: Re: End play tool Reply with quote

neil68 wrote:
It's fairly simple. Just give the rear pulley bolt some firm taps with a hammer, using a block of wood for protection. Then install your SP Tool on the top right case hole (if using an engine stand) and snug the set screw down to the face of the flywheel edge.

Then take your block of wood to the gland nut and firmly tap it the other way. This should demonstrate the end play. Then get your feeler gauge set and start checking...start with a 0.003" feeler and work your way up.

0.006" is the acceptable wear limit and 0.0027" is the minimum recommended (up to 0.005").

Good luck!


where exactly are you sticking the feeler guage? and i won't be using an engine stand.
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Russ Wolfe
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Between the small set screw and the flywheel.
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Max Welton
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Max
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If you can go 100 miles you can go 1000, cruising the highway.
It's aircooled, anything that will go wrong will probably happen within the first 10 minutes.
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice resolution Max.

You got some great pictures there.
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bon2198
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

max, i think i love you!!!!! awesome pic man thanks so much!!!!! ok, now let's say that it needs adjustment, how is this accomplished? i've read in the Bentley and the Muir (i know it's crap), but i just don't get it. i'm sure once the motor is out it will make sense, but do you have another awesome pic of where and how to adjust? thank you so much, being in the military surely does not make me rich, so i need and love doing all my own repairs, and this site surely makes that possible!!!!
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Max Welton
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hang on...
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modok wrote:
If you can go 100 miles you can go 1000, cruising the highway.
It's aircooled, anything that will go wrong will probably happen within the first 10 minutes.
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Max Welton
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turns out I have an old type-3 case out in the barn right now. So I took some pictures.

But first, you haven't thrown your old seal away yet, right? You can use it to help install the new one without damaging it.

This is the front of the case with the bearing installed and the business end of the crank visible. That's my little mark on the bearing so I can see where the hole for the dowel is.

While the bearing is accessible, try moving it with your fingers. You should not be able to. Also look for damage on the thrust surface. The one in this picture is new.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The 3 shims go over the crank and wind up sandwiched between the flywheel and the bearing. The small amount of room between them (AKA crankshaft end-play) allows for an oil film between each pair of parts and for thermal expansion.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Getting the amount of end-play correct is a bit of trial and error. If it measures too small you replace one of the shims with a thinner one and measure again.

A guy who builds engines will have a box of shims of all different thicknesses. Big advantage. You or me, we got to borrow someone else's collection or buy an assortment. Kind of a pain, but there you are.

I would take a measurement first using the shims that were in your engine to begin with.

When end-play is set to your satisfaction, the new seal (this is my old one) goes in the case like so.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


BTW, Bob Hoover has a pretty good writeup on seal installation. Might save you some grief.

http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/2006/12/leaky-oil-seal.html

Oh, your old seal? I place the old seal up against the new seal, then bump the old seal with a mallet. Spreads out the impact. I'm 2 for 2 doing it this way.

Max
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modok wrote:
If you can go 100 miles you can go 1000, cruising the highway.
It's aircooled, anything that will go wrong will probably happen within the first 10 minutes.
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bon2198
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you so much Max this is really a big big help. i have the oil seal installation tool (used to have to change these a lot when i was a generator mechanic on diesel engines), and i have read the bob hoover write up, but your explanation and pictures are going to help me out BIG TIME!!!!! thank you so much for taking the time to go and take pictures you didn't have, i really really appreciate it!!!!! if your ever near tampa i owe you some drinks!!!!!!!!

kb
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1970 VW Beetle 1776cc MOFOCO w/hydraulic lifters, 042 heads and dual dellorto's
"It's better to be hated for what you are than loved for what you are not"

At the end of the day it's YOUR car so do what YOU want to it.
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bon2198
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, this might be a stupid question. but with the End Play checker tool. is there a certain place you need to put that set screw, looking at the pictures it seams you can set it wherever you want so the feeler guage would fit perfectly. am i missing something?

wait, re-reading a post from neil above i think i understand now. forgot about the taping part. DUH!!!!!!!!!! d'oh!
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1970 VW Beetle 1776cc MOFOCO w/hydraulic lifters, 042 heads and dual dellorto's
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Russ Wolfe
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tear a lot of VW engines down. I try to keep the shims that come out with the crankshaft. Over the years, I have found that the shims go with the crankshaft.
You can set the endplay without the case. The endplay is between the crank, flywheel, and the thrust main bearing. Before you put the crank into the case, assemble them on the bench, and then check the endplay with feeler gauges.

I also have a stack of shims, that I have collected over the years. And the difference between 1600 shims and 40hp shims is the inside diameter.
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bon2198
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ Wolfe wrote:
I tear a lot of VW engines down. I try to keep the shims that come out with the crankshaft. Over the years, I have found that the shims go with the crankshaft.
You can set the endplay without the case. The endplay is between the crank, flywheel, and the thrust main bearing. Before you put the crank into the case, assemble them on the bench, and then check the endplay with feeler gauges.

I also have a stack of shims, that I have collected over the years. And the difference between 1600 shims and 40hp shims is the inside diameter.


thanks for the tip Russ.... i have not built many vw engines, just fix mine when it breaks. so hopefully my end play is good. if not, to the local VW shop i'll be a going....
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1970 VW Beetle 1776cc MOFOCO w/hydraulic lifters, 042 heads and dual dellorto's
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Turborail
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ Wolfe wrote:
I tear a lot of VW engines down. I try to keep the shims that come out with the crankshaft. Over the years, I have found that the shims go with the crankshaft.


And I have come across many flywheels that are machined different, therefore requiring different shims to set endplay when the crank was not changed.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tore a Gex engine down a couple weeks ago, and it was so screwed up on end play. It not only had the o-ring in the flywheel, but it had the steel gasket in it. The end play was way off. The case had been align bored 2.5 mm, and the thrust had been cut 2.5mm. The rear main looked like it was custom made.
And this was a brand new engine that had never turned a wheel.
One cylinder had never fired.
This engine caught fire and burned.
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Russ Wolfe wrote:
You can set the endplay without the case. The endplay is between the crank, flywheel, and the thrust main bearing. Before you put the crank into the case, assemble them on the bench, and then check the endplay with feeler gauges.

That's how I do it.
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Bob Hoover
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Russ Wolfe"]
You can set the endplay without the case. The endplay is between the crank, flywheel, and the thrust main bearing. Before you put the crank into the case, assemble them on the bench, and then check the endplay with feeler gauges.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Good for you. The method you've described is in fact the method most commonly used by factory-trained mechanics when they are ASSEMBLING an engine.

When the engine is NOT torn down, as when replacing the clutch disk, the most appropriate method is to use a dial indicator or a 'bolt jig' and feeler gauges.

This is another case where Conventional Wisdom, that lovely stuff... Smile is dead wrong, as in adjusting your valves, adjusting fan-belt tension and so on. But try explaining that to all the 'experts' out there and see what you get for your trouble Smile

-Bob Hoover
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